Forum Topic

How Do We Solve the Care Crisis?

Today there is an article in The Times: “Care Help Denied to 700,000 Elderly in System Under Siege”. This is a very real problem, I know several stressed carers around Putney.  Should people have to pay for care by selling their homes?  I hope Boris Johnson remembers what he promised and does something to sort this out.

Martine Guy ● 2317d62 Comments

We found the whole thing a big problem in that we never knew who had been to visit ie which agency they were from. When there was some sort of an injury being dressed it was OK because we asked and found out that the District Nurse was coming out once a week but there were at least 10 different people called the District Nurse.  There was no paperwork left for us.  When we were taking it in turns to be there all the time the 15 min that we nipped out for was bound to be the time that someone came and the questions and messages would remain unasked and unanswered.This was all made worse by the fact that what happens in one part of the country does not seem to be the same as happens in another part.  We learnt from our very first disastrous experience that we needed to check whether the District Nurse system had been primed of a hospital discharge. FIL actually only lasted a couple of weeks in the care home before he went into hospital.  It seemed that as soon as any one was ill in the care home the ambulance was called. I think yesterday I heard someone say that nurses shouldn't need degrees.  I suspect he doesn't know the difference between trained and registered nurses and Health Care Assistants. There are more HCAs than nurses.

Philippa Bond ● 2301d

Thank you all for the input on this.  It the same all over the country. The Sunday Times today:  “Care crisis laid bare: 10 years to save the system”. “Almost no one has planned for long term care” “Despite growing numbers of frail, older people in our society, neither central nor local government has a sustainable plan to pay for care” I hope so much they find a cure for dementia/Alzheimer’s, it hits people’s families like a lead weight dropping on them.  Everyone I know with a parent suffering from it, never saw it coming.  It turns your parent into a different person.  

Martine Guy ● 2301d

The lack of coordination is a real problem. People should not be shy about seeking help from their local councillor or even the MP.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2301d

Thanks for the clarification, Martine. We didn't encounter either of those scenarios with my mother or mother-in-law, although I can see the reasoning for those rules. It is complex and if one has a sick or infirm relative it can be difficult to focus on unraveling all the relevant stuff. I seem to recall Age Concern have some useful guidance and a phone helpline. The other aggravating thing is there appears at times to be a lack of coordination and communication between the NHS, DWP, and local authority social services and finance departments .... to be fair most of them seem to be struggling with unrealistic work loads - one of my mother's social workers suddenly disappeared off the scence during the period I was trying to find a care home place which didn't help (I'm assuming she went on sick leave, don't think I was responsible!) and the person I found most helpful and competent was the one in the finance department! 

Michael Ixer ● 2301d

Michael, if you go into hospital and you are in for more than 28 days then the Attendance Allowance stops.  I guess it is also stopped if a local authority is paying for a person’s care and rightly so. I think there is a lot of confusing information out there.  Perhaps when people start to pick up the State Pension, information leaflets should be sent out on paying for care, who qualifies for funding and who doesn’t and what benefits will stop/continue.  At some point, perhaps when the Attendance Allowance is applied for, a leaflet should go out for adult children living with parents that the age at which the family h9me is disregarded for care charges is 60.

Martine Guy ● 2301d

Philippa. I'm surprised that attendance allowance would be stopped on entering a care home. The attendance allowance is assessed based on the level of care needed irrespective of where one's living and it would be unusual for one's level of care to reduce on entering a care home as the reason is usually because someone needs more care (although, if self funding, I suppose someone could more into a care home for convenience, a change in circumstances, or planning for the future). In my mother's case we didn't apply for attendance allowance until she moved from hospital to a care home after a short illness and it was someone working at her local authority who did her financial assessment who stressed she qualified for AA and we must apply - and, if I remember correctly, even offered to help if I had any issues with the application, although fortunately all went smoothly. I seem to remember I couldn't apply immediately because the local authority covered the first few weeks of her care home under some rule, and one couldn't claim AA for that period. It was probably in the authority's as well as my mother's interest to collect the attendance allowance because although my mother had to pay for her care home the AA would have delayed the time when she ran out of money and the local authority had to pick up the tab - although, sadly, she died long before that became an issue.

Michael Ixer ● 2301d

I'm sure we had to stop the Attendance Allowance when FIL went into the care home do do check what the situation is now.  He was self-funding.  He had already down-sized his home from a house to a flat.  This was useful to us when visiting but the option of renting out was not available to him or us under the lease.

Philippa Bond ● 2302d

Mike. Yes some interesting thoughts. Some observations.. I agree the advantage in self funding is that one, or ones relatives, can select the most appropriate care home although, as you say, there is always the concern of exhausting the money supply and, if the home isn't on the local authority list, the elderly person may have to move: not a desirable situation. (There are care plan financial products that can mitigate this but I'm not sure of their practicalities or suitability for all.) Wealth these days is often mainly in their property and rental income is insufficient to sustain the fees. Selling at present has been difficult in some areas and the cladding problem, even if it isn't a fire risk, is clogging the market in flats as mortgage companies won't loan money: yet another issue. Continuing health care seems almost impossible to claim unless one's at death door: dementia and Alzheimer's are insufficient. Your idea of a tapering payment is interesting but there's still the issue that some homes are self funded only and those that take both self and local authority funded residents use the self funded to subsidise the lower rate for local authorities. That seems unfair, particular as there seem to be differences in the way authorities act; some, if the local social services stipulate someone should be placed in a home will pay the fees to the home and then recharge the fees to the self funding resident thus allowing payment at the lower rate. Perhaps Townshend et al had an insight to the future with My Generation  :-(

Michael Ixer ● 2302d

Mike, thank you for your thoughtful post on this complicated problem.  I don’t want to put out wrong information — you read so much differing advice on all the on-line forums about paying for care, care homes and the benefit system.  I know I contacted the older people charities and I also found Solicitors for the Elderly a good place to get advice. I appreciate your post because you have experience of what happens.  It is something that needs to be discussed.  

Martine Guy ● 2302d

Just a point re attendance allowance and care homes as I have some experience here.  Whilst my father was at home with visiting carers we arranged the lower level attendance allowance.When he unfortunately had to move to a care home, they arranged for the attendance allowance to increase to the higher level.  Also state pension remained.In our case this was through privately funded care homes, as my fathers care needs had increased it seemed natural to increase the attendance allowance,If council funded then I understand that existing income should reasonably be used to contribute towards the cost, and that seems only reasonable, although I do think some should be left available to the person to allow for buying clothes and creature comforts etc that are not provided.Regarding the initial point around overall funding, I think that where people are self funding, they obviously have some money (house, capital, income) but this can drain very quickly.  Broadly Care home stays average 2-4 years I believe, but the fear around money is that they last longer rather than shorter so it runs out,My thought is that an allowance should be phased in, perhaps nothing in year one, and maybe two but by year 3 say £15-20k allowance, and maybe after 4 years all should be paid.This could be managed via expanding  the existing attendance allowance scheme or something similar .This would I think achieve a reasonable balance and compromise.- people would not end up burning though hundreds of thousands of savings through long stays as the state would take over- by avoiding paying for the first year or two and phasing after that the greater past of the cost would be avoided by the state and taxpayerWhen people have their own property this can be rented out to help pay for the care fees to reduce the capital burn.  We took this approach with my father so whilst his savings were reducing as the costs were higher than his income even with the rental, this did reduce savings depletion.I do think for self funders a balance is needed.  For example if I had a £30k net income in retirement and care fees were £50-60k I would expect in all circumstances to be contributing from that income.Having seen many care homes while we investigating, I also think it’s best if people’s familys can choose if they are self funding - there is a huge variation in type and quality of care homes and care.  We experienced two, one a new hotel style shiny care home that looked good but was too large and impersonal and did not look after my father well we felt as the carers were moved around too much they couldn’t build the relationships well, so we switched to a smaller one (with 23 residents) that was a bit run down without any extra facilities but the carers all knew all the residents well and looked after them with love, and so much nicer for people at the end of their lives to have that.Leaving oneself totally in the hands of the council to decide I think is more worrying as the social care departments won’t know the people that well and have many competing priorities.

Mike Warman ● 2303d

Phillipa, flats attached to a care home, that sounds a very good idea.  I think what we all want is to be safe, and when you are an older person you may be well physically and mentally but just want someone to look in on you to check you are ok, you don’t actually need the care side of things. People should not assume that going into a carehome is easy and they will get just what they want. We saw 3 homes for my mum, the first we turned down,the second turned us down and it was the third one that accepted my mum. I like it very much, the staff are lovely.  The social worker who dealt with us from Wandsworth Council was very nice and I cannot fault her.  

Martine Guy ● 2303d

https://www.which.co.uk/later-life-careVery expensive and on occasions there have been problems with the amount of money available from selling running out and the local authority wanting to change care homes as a result or trying to claim extra from another member of the family.  Once happily settled in a change is not wanted.  Not everyone settles in happily.  If you are blind and other residents can't talk and you can't read and electronic gadgets are too complicated (if you can't read instructions it is harder to remember them) then it is not very satisfactory.One of the best situations we have seen is where there are flats attached to a care home and you can increase the amount of the care package as you need it.

Philippa Bond ● 2303d

You are right, Phillipa. I think what people struggle with when it comes to carehome costs is that a person may have been managing perfectly well at home.  Their state pension and attendance allowance will have covered the cost of the day to day living expenses, plus it will have covered the cost of visiting carers or day care centres. Then they go into a carehome permanently and their income is suddenly inadequate for the fees, so much so that their home will need to be sold to cover the shortfall. One family said to me that their in-law might as well be in the Ritz Hotel, the costs are so high and they wouldn’t tell me how much the family was paying. I also think families are unprepared for the fact dementia/Alzheimer’s on their own are not enough to qualify for free care.

Martine Guy ● 2303d

You also lose Attendance Allowance when you go into hospital.  You can then be penalised if you don't tell them by having to wait a longer amount of time until it re-starts.

Philippa Bond ● 2303d

Thanks for this post, Phillipa.  
I would like to add about paying for care, that my understanding is that when you enter a carehome permanently, you lose the attendance allowance, also I think you lose the majority of your state pension and are left with a small amount for weekly expenditure (though I am not certain of this).  I don’t know what other benefits are stopped when you go into care.  Anyway all this plus loss of a home comes as a big shock to many people.

Martine Guy ● 2303d

https://england.shelter.org.uk/get_help

Philippa Bond ● 2303d

Isn't it better that everyone pays more so that should they be unlucky enough to need a lot of care they can get it?  After all there are an awful lot of people who can afford and do already pay for the care services that the Councils provide and they receive. You have to if you have more than a certain amount of savings.  And that can include the amazing Reablement Services which are so valuable when you have been in hospital and need some help and support to get accustomed to being back home again.  We have seen a 100 year old being delivered home in the middle of the night in winter without the neighbours being alerted and the heating being put on.  Like Martine I believe there should be more sheltered housing or accommodation with a warden which is available immediately for those well enough to be discharged from hospital to move into ie there is whatever technology is necessary (eg tel line) for a care line system already installed prior to discharge.We should also think about whether our homes will still be suitable for us as we age or if we break a leg skiing.  If we don't own our homes we can't sell them but that might cause us other problems.  Just look at the problems that many tenants are having getting house repairs done.  And if years have been spent as an unpaid live-in carer it can be even worse.

Philippa Bond ● 2303d

Thanks Jonathan, you put it a lot better than I can.  
The situation is dire at the moment and is going to get worse, as I understand there aren’t enough carehomes.  I think what is causing so much upset for people is how judgements are made as to who, and what illnesses qualify for free care.  I also think the amount which people are left with after their homes and savings are taken into account for paying for care should be raised, it is around £23,000 and imo that is too low.  People know they can’t expect to live for free, food, heating, carers need to be paid for, you would have to pay for them if you stayed on in your own home.

Martine Guy ● 2303d

Message:if you’re sick you go to the NHS = no cost apart from prescriptions if you have to pay for them.  If you’re long term sick the same. But if you’re unable to look after yourself, whether old and demented or not, you are expected to rely on family and what you might have in the bank (or can sell) to pay for care.It’s even worse for those with mental health problems- too many who cannot access whatever services are available end up in court and then potentially in prison, often the last place they should be. Part of the problem is that it is difficult to know where to draw the line between caring for the sick and caring for the long term infirm.  Who decides. Hospital doctors?  Social services?  Many older folk end up taking themselves to hospital where at least they can get proper care without worrying about the cost but hospitals are already struggling so that is hardly a solution in the wider interest. There is no sign of cross party agreement on solving the adult care problem but a solution that does not expect families to make a financial contribution to what can only become an ever more expensive problem has to be unrealistic. Absent that, the onus lies with woefully underfunded local authorities not all of whom employ sympathetic staff in Adult Social Care. Martine is right to raise this as one the most challenging social issues of the day. Sadly an acceptable political consensus is as far off as ever and there are few signs the current government is giving the issue the urgent attention it obviously needs.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2303d

Mrs GuyThis is a reply to your post on 7/2/20 that kicked off this thread.

John Hawkes ● 2303d

Mrs GuyThe gist of my post is that if we as a country are not going to force an unsympathetic Conservative government to fund and staff a comprehensive care system for the elderly, then individuals that can do so will have to fund it themselves -  even if it means they have to sell their home.And, why should that not be the case anyway ?

John Hawkes ● 2303d

Quickly reading through this post again has Mr Hawkes mixed me up with Bunny’s post on 9.2.20 17.35. Sorry, if it’s not you, Bunny, but otherwise I don’t know Mr Hawkes is on about.

Martine Guy ● 2303d

Mr Hawkes, I don’t really understand what you are saying about me?  I don’t understand your point.  

Martine Guy ● 2303d

The system is under siege because it is under funded and also short of staff willing to do such work.Both causes one can put down to Conservative Government policies over the last ten years or so.So the answer is to put up taxes to pay for what is required and recruit staff from wherever we can to do the work.Current policies don't look encouraging on both fronts if Boris' current pronouncements are anything to go by.On the other hand I am sure Mrs Guy, who I confess to making a perhaps erroneous assumption is a Conservative,  believes as did Mrs Thatcher that people should stand on their own two feet and look after their own.That means that if they have acquired assets and wealth, rather than their children looking forward to their benefits and having the rest of us pay for their care, these assets should be liquidated and the profits used to support them in later life.

John Hawkes ● 2303d

The new immigration system is going to send the cost of elderly care through the roof, so things are getting worse, not better

Sean Hodges ● 2305d

Thanks for the post, Phillipa.  I think your FIL’s problems were a bit different to my mother’s. I realise the social workers have a massive work load and the majority we dealt with were very caring and efficient. I hope more day care centres can be opened, Holybourne Day Care Centre was such a help to my family.  They had the key for my mum’s flat and would come to pick her up and bring her home.  The most important thing that made it work for us, was that the home is secure and my mother could not wander out onto the street, as had been the case at 2 other daycare centres. This was not a free service and we paid, but it was worth every penny, The music day was the highlight. I also think more sheltered accommodation should be built, so that people can retain their independence as long as possible, but with the knowledge someone is close by if they need them. By the way, I did notice at the weekend that The Times, Sunday Times and MailOnline had articles on the high cost of care and what happens if you live at home with a parent who has to go into care:  the adult child does need to reach 60 for the property not to be taken into account for carehome charges.

Martine Guy ● 2305d

I think the government has misjudged the needs of the care services. The attributes that carers need - empathy, tact, compassion and patience - unlike techniques for lifting people and administering medication aren't skills that can be taught and, sadly,  are undervalued. We don't want people being coerced to work in care professions if that's not their calling, unless we want more abuse scandals. 

Michael Ixer ● 2305d

We managed to get broadband put in at his flat which meant that we could work from there.  That took persuasion because the internet was something that was completely alien to him.

Philippa Bond ● 2305d

Martine  I'm sorry that the new system did not work for you and I can understand how a lack in continuity would be difficult.  However without some sort of central hub we fear that there are many that fall through the gaps.  If the Council doesn't know about them they can miss out on what little help is available.  The elderly can become very isolated and more vulnerable when unable to deal with all the technology and new automated systems they are suddenly faced with.  With cuts eg some Councils only giving one hearing aid we were really thankful that FIL with poor sight was prescribed one.  (He had been complaining that we were whispering so that he couldn't hear the conversation.) We taught at least a dozen carers how to put a hearing aid in!  (There was little continuity despite promises.) It made such a difference to our relationship as he then could take part and realised that there was no conspiracy against him. (He maintained that his best friend had been put in a care home by his family and this was not what he wanted - yet.) We also had an in-line amplifier on the big button phones and set them up with friends, neighbours and us all on speed dial.  We had laminated sheets of tel nos in large font stuck to tables with each phone.  The Age Concern emergency call button on a cord around his neck helped in case of falls and several neighbours had spare keys.  However we still had a couple of hours to drive if anything went wrong.  With today's news I think there will be more problems for some of the care firms who I expect will have more bureaucracy to deal with.  Many of them are already handing back their contracts to Councils saying they can no longer find the staff.  There is also a shortage of care homes.

Philippa Bond ● 2305d

It will be interesting to see what the government comes up with regarding this. There are some financial products called care funding plans that exist. I'm not an expert but essentially one pays a lump some up front and care payments are paid until death. There's obviously the danger that one dies sooner than later and pays more in the lump sum than one would have spent in monthly fees but the advantage is one can protect the balance of ones wealth and not risk running out of money before death. The advantage with self funding is, provided one has sufficient resources, it's possible to select the home one likes - or one's relatives with PoA can for them - but if one runs out of money a council may require the person to move if the fees are above the rate that the LA is willing to pay. At the moment things vary between local authorities and getting CHC seems to be virtually impossible unless the person's virtually comatose.With regard to thee "right to buy" issue; I agree there's no difference between ex-council tenants and other property owners but I would note that as part of the RTB campaign the Thatcher government promoted home ownership and the acquisition of wealth that could be passed on to children; however, they omitted to stress the responsibilities they'd have such as paying service charges and contributing to their own care in old age. If a financial service company did that the FCA would be after them ...

Michael Ixer ● 2315d

Phillipa, I agree about the help and support.  One of the worst things that happened to us was when the Council system changed and instead of having a social worker that really knew our family, they brought in a sort of central hub, that took your details and passed them onto basically the next social worker available.  Another change that badly effected us, was when Wandsworth stopped using Barnes Hospital.  I believe the hospital is still open, but not to Wandsworth patients.  Instead of being able to use it for respite care, we had to go through the social work system who arranged respite in a care home. The thing that most helped us was my mum being able to attend the Holybourne Day Care Centre, especially on the music day.  It saved us.  Plus having marvellous neighbours on the Crown Court Estate. x

Martine Guy ● 2315d

People who have created trusts to protect their wealth, may be a little more willing to make a contribution to their care in their later years, knowing they have taken steps to protect as much as possible of their estate from care fees.  Not everyone is as financially savvy. What you are saying demonstrates the unfairness of the current system, if you are financially savvy you know what to do to protect your money so that you just make “some contribution” from your estate.  For those who haven’t planned, they face financial wipeout.  I hope the government acts to stop this. 

Martine Guy ● 2315d

It is the help and support that is missing.  The closed and closing daycare centres. The lack of respite.  Words can't express how wonderful it was when someone offered to sit in while I went out - for a flu jab - for a walk around the block - to the dentist etc.  A friend has herself just finished doing this and although we kept asking about her eye appointments (as we knew she had a problem) and for which she had to return to London we then discovered she hadn't kept up with all her other medical appmts. All made more difficult with all the cancelled hospital apptmts and GP going on stress leave.  GPs are very aware that this happens.What is this random 60 number after which you are suddenly less important and yet not important enough.  How does it relate to pension age or any other age?

Philippa Bond ● 2315d

What is reasonable really depends on value etc also many people have protected themselves in part by putting the property into a trust.I would certainly expect to pay some contribution from the value of my estate.It will be interesting to see what the govt come up with  before deciding next move .

Andy Pike ● 2315d

Andy, I do not want to turn this into a discussion on the Right to Buy rather than social care.  You are right it effects those who live in private housing, too.  I know that this is a huge worry to everyone who suddenly find themselves with a parent going into care.  They don’t see it coming and when it hits them, it is far worse than they imagined. Would you be willing to see all of the value of your home taken up by care fees, so that you are left with about £25,000 to pass onto your family?  If not, how much is reasonable?

Martine Guy ● 2315d

No one that rented for decades in the private sector got a discount when they bought a property even if it was the one they had rented.Many claims in the 80s of under valuation of council sales.

Andy Pike ● 2315d

Andy, you are right there may well be no difference, but people haven’t expected this to happen, they are unprepared, when this hits them.  As regards the generous discount, they paid rent for decades and then took on a mortgage.  Are you saying Local Authority properties were under valued when they were sold off, I have never heard of this before.  people that I know who bought under Right to Buy got a discount on the market value. I sincerely hope you are right about the charge and that people cannot be evicted from their homes.  The care situation as it stands causes so much distress and worry.

Martine Guy ● 2315d

Bunny, I think the problem these days is because everything is so expensive a lot of the younger generation are finding it so hard and to work look after their children. Years ago my son went to a free nursery in Lacy Road and he loved it and the staff were kind. When my son put one of his in a nursery in Tolworth for a couple of times a week it got £90 a day, just so his partner could work as a hairdresser. Unless your parent lives with you how are you able to look after them, if you both need to work. If they have dementia another problem completely.

Barbara Stevens ● 2315d

I dont see difference between a former council home and a property purchasrd on the open market (apart from the generous discount and under valuation at time of sale) .Anyway in the situation you suggest you are not evicted to achieve the sale. If you have to make a contribution then a charge is put on the property to be redeemed at tge time of any future sale

Andy Pike ● 2315d

I think the care system is very unfair.  If you live in an ex local authority property with a parent, who has bought their home under Right to Buy, then that parent goes into a home due to illlness, even though you may have lived in that property for 40 years with your parent (the last few years of which you have been their carer), you are under risk of losing your home because the property will need to be sold to pay for the care fees.  This situation is only avoided if you reach the age of 60, which means you can stay on in the property, or if you have had your name put on the deeds.  If you are 59 and a son or daughter,  tough, care home fees and loss of the home you have lived in all your adult life, are coming your way. And, as I have said above, it is the judgement of who qualifies for free care.  It is an incredibly difficult thing to get, dementia on it’s own is not enough.

Martine Guy ● 2315d

Bunny. That does sound reactionary. Some are single parents because their partner has died, as was my maternal grandmother who had to bring up two daughters in the 1920-30s with no help from any family or the state.

Michael Ixer ● 2315d

Agree - families do a lot in many, many, many cases. They are not asking the state to do everything but do need help. Not everyone has family or friends who are able to help

Ruth Pates ● 2315d

Yes, agree - Dilnot 9 years old and by no means the first report!

Ruth Pates ● 2315d

If only life was so simple, Bunny.  My days of being a carer are over as my mum has gone into a home, we do not pay care home fees, but I feel so sorry for those who do.  I am an only child as is my mother, there was no-one else.  Your idea takes no account of carers who might have jobs, children to look after and the type of problems encountered in caring, such as simple things like hoping that person doesn’t step outside their door in case they get locked out or are they able to switch on the tv that day, or the complexity of the illnesses physical or mental they might suffer. I couldn’t just go out, I had to make sure I as always about or someone else was.  There are things you just don’t think about until you become a carer.  In an ideal world my mum would have lived with us, but she has smoked for 70 years, and we don’t smoke
I know other carers around Putney, we understand one another and the stress.

Martine Guy ● 2315d

Ruth: We have been waiting for ever for the promised Green Paper on the subject.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2315d

I'm sorry to sound so reactionary, but families need to look after each other.  Single mums (not divorced) need to understand that they have put themselves into that situation and young girls need to avoid getting pregnant.Families who have elderly parents and grandparents need to step up and look after them, as they are family and their responsibility. I seem to have turned into my mother, but at last I see her point.  WHY should people feel they have to rely on the state??

Bunny Payne ● 2315d

@ Andy I agree, the difference is that I live alone and I feel sorry for people who share homes with people who need care.But I have always thought if I need care (God forbid) then it would be completely reasonable to sell my home to pay for it, and why not?

Bunny Payne ● 2315d

Dilnot report - published a mere 9 years ago - is one example of what could be done - pragmatic, affordable solution https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/field/field_publication_file/briefing-dilnot-commission-social-care-jul11.pdf

Ruth Pates ● 2315d

Good summary of the key social care issues from the Kings Fund. Current system is unjust -  https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/whats-your-problem-social-care

Ruth Pates ● 2315d

I'm sorry to know that Lucille.  But it is logical if you think about it.  Memory is multi-sensory and what you see and hear and smell and touch helps you to remember something.  If you have been deaf for a long time you may have more acute other senses because you have been relying on them more.Hearing aids can be notoriously difficult to get used to - and be fiddly to put in and have fiddly tiny batteries.  Action on Hearing Loss used to try to have volunteers who would help and encourage people to keep on using them ie get used to them so that they did not end up consigned unused to a drawer.  FIL was blind and MIL deaf so there were some interesting conversations.I guess you rely a lot of subtitled TV. Or do you have your rooms wired so that you can hear?  At least you can read instructions!

Philippa Bond ● 2316d

*Lack of hearing is implicated in memory loss so wearing the hearing aids is important. * I had no idea about that Philippa. That explains my memory loss then as I've never had a good memory and  been partially deaf since childhood.

Lucille Grant ● 2317d

When families are no longer all living in the same area it is hard to ask an elderly parent to give up their home to move across the country to somewhere where they can no longer see their own friends and do all the things they are still doing.  Life can become more and more difficult.  It is so important that hearing and sight apptmts are kept up because it becomes more and more difficult to communicate.  It is worth remembering that memory is multi-sensory.  Lack of hearing is implicated in memory loss so wearing the hearing aids is important.  It is also hard to ask children to do the same as they have jobs and careers and their own families.  It does sometimes happen that families move in together though. It would be good if our homes were all more flexible as it seems those of some of our Italian friends are.Once upon a time an unmarried daughter would get this caring task but nowadays we are all expected to work for a long time to get our pensions.  Carer's allowance stops when you get your pension and many don't qualify for it although much time is spent supervising carers snd filling in/supporting when nobody turns up.  There aren't the good occupational pensions that there used to be.  FIL lived as a pensioner for longer than he did as a worker.  Many are living longer.  You do have to be prepared to fight for continuing health care.  There are some agencies that can help. Care homes tend to charge more for self-funders than for Council places.  Another inequality.  Councils don't have the money.  In the past some care companies have given their contracts back to Councils because they could not afford to carry on with them.  Age UK is also very helpful when looking for advice.

Philippa Bond ● 2317d

Very true, Lucille, I hadn’t thought of that.  My way of looking at it is that what they were given, after years of paying rent and then mortgage, is being taken away from them through care fees.  
Anyway, even if people don’t agree with me, I think it is a problem that has to be talked about with our ageing population.  What are people willing to pay, should you lose everything except for about £23,000, as it is now.  If not, where’s the money coming from?

Martine Guy ● 2317d

I think some of the most hardest hit financially by care fees are the families who have bought their homes under Right To Buy. Why them in particular Martine? Not  a sarky comment, genuinely interested. They bought their home at a discount and surely built up equity in them just as much as  any other home buyer?

Lucille Grant ● 2317d

Ivonne, thanks for your post.  I wasn’t disagreeing with you, as you seem to understand the reality of the situation.  I think some of the most hardest hit financially by care fees are the families who have bought their homes under Right To Buy.  Many people just don’t see it coming, it won’t happen to them, but the fact is, it does.  Paying upwards of £52,000 per year is a lot of money, if you are in a carehome for 10 years, it is at least half a million. Another bad thing about the system is how they judge who qualifies for free care, eg one person with dementia might get NHS free continuing care, yet another person with pretty much identical symptoms may end up paying full whack.  
The system needs urgent attention and families are looking to Boris Johnson to keep his promises.

Martine Guy ● 2317d

Martine, we did care for an aunt of mine who had dementia so I think I do understand a little bit about it.When I mentioned people looking after children (grand parents, parents, aunts and uncles, etc) I meant that most people find looking after children a responsibility but after elderly family relatives an inconvenience or a chore.  My parallel was made with Latin families looking and respecting the elderly members of the family.On the whole, the idea of investing part of the value of one's home for care is perhaps not altogether incorrect but it certainly is questionable.I find that most people in low to middle incomes do pay all the tax etc they need to.  Some above let us say £150K a week find ways of avoiding paying their taxes and obligations.I think dishonesty and greed crept up at tremendous pace since the 1980s unfortunately. Being totally flippant and horrible, I wonder whether elderly people should not be looked after in prisons and prisoners in old people's care homes.  Not an original idea, I know, but one to be considered.  This country has more empathy with prisoners, and some very violent at that, than with their elderly.  Horrible!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2317d

Ivonne, re family, I don’t think people understand the reality of dementia and what it is like to deal with an extremely difficult, aggressive older person who may wander or be incontinent, or be unable to feed or dress themselves.  If anyone thinks it is like dealing with an infant it is most definitely not.  The person I know who faces losing their home, has been caring full time for their parent.  What is their reward for this:— possible homelessness!
When the Conservatives put forward the idea of leaving people with £100,000 if their home is sold to pay for care, I thought it was a good idea.  Maybe leaving people with a percentage of their home’s value might be a better idea.  It is a very difficult problem.

Martine Guy ● 2317d

As an old person I accept that i should pay something towards my care, should it be necessary.Why should those of us with property expect the average council tax payer to subsidise our future care? I fully expect my property to be used in part, at least,  to find my care. After all what are savings for ?

Andy Pike ● 2317d

And one must question many times where are the family?And Andy, you may have had mortgages with tax relief.  Great, some people did not.  Then came the 125% mortgages which were madness.Some people lost a lot of their wealth with the 2008 financial crisis.Others, who also benefited from mortgage tax relief had problems later in life.Looking after our old people is a responsibility we all have because, for those extraordinary ways of life, they were the ones who looked after us as children.  How do we solve the care crisis as well as the NHS?  Give them the funds they need without employing private companies to manage these.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2317d

Thank you Andy and Phillipa for replying.  I think this subject has to be discussed because it is effecting so many families. People that I know, who are facing Care bills, aren’t objecting towards paying towards care, but it is the cost.  In London you are looking at £1000 per week minimum for a decent carehome.  I listened to a radio phone-in where someone’s relative was paying £80,000 per year I know of one desperate case where an adult faces having to leave their home of several decades as the home will have to be sold to pay for their parent’s care.  I do not want to go into further detail, but it seems terribly unfair to me. I think a lot of people do not realise how serious this will be for their family, until the crisis hits them they have no idea.

Martine Guy ● 2317d

I believe Govt has this listed to be a cross party solution.  When?Situation is dire.  It needs to be joined up with the NHS because so much of it is relating to hospital discharge.  It's all under stress.  There have been several items on the radio recently about families taking their elderly relatives with dementia to Thailand to place them in care there and then returning themselves to Europe.  It is a long way to go to visit!  They reckon that it is a better quality of care.The carers we saw were paid minimum wage and were rushing from one service user to another.  It took one hour for a good carer to get FIL up and out of bed and washed and dressed, meds taken and with breakfast in front of him while she wrote up the book.  That is a good carer and with nothing going wrong eg looking for a hearing aid.  I sometimes prepared the fruit for the breakfast if I was there.  The elderly don't like to be pulled and pushed around and don't move as fast as younger people.  No time for sitting and chatting as well which is why friends to visit were always very welcome, together with the chiropodist, the lady from the library and the lady who cut hair.Unfortunately I discovered that the carers had several service users timetabled for the same time or overlapping and they were not being paid for their time travelling between them which they are entitled to by law.  When you think about it most people want to get out of bed and have breakfast at about the same time.  Certainly plenty of time before a hot lunch is delivered.  I'm glad we chose a different service for lunch otherwise  it could all have happened at the same time.A similar problem happened with bedtime.  Nobody wants to be put to bed at 6pm.  Everyone wanted the later slots - this is because a lot of older people doze off several times during the day.  And nobody told me and I didn't realise that until I experienced it and just how tiring it is when you  yourself don't!The care home used for respite a couple of times had a problem too with lack of staff.  Although each room had a shower there weren't enough staff available to have one.Most people don't seem to realise how costly elderly care is, or that they have to pay for it if they have more than a certain amount of savings.It would be better to pay more tax for just this.  We are living much longer and it is no good just living for today and pretending that you are not going to become old and disabled.  You may not have a say!But everyone votes for low tax - duh.

Philippa Bond ● 2317d

Are you suggesting those of us  who own our properties should not pay towards our care??Especially those of us old enough to have received generous mortgage tax relief in the past

Andy Pike ● 2317d