Forum Topic

A timely reminder

How nations can be consumed by paranoia."The domino theory was used first by Dwight Eisenhower to argue that if communist forces in Vietnam succeeded, the contagion of Kremlin-supported regimes could spread to Japan, New Zealand, and Australia. This was a fallacy. Virtually all revolutions during the Cold War were homegrown and, in general, waged to overthrow colonial masters — of all ideologies."https://www.thedailybeast.com/9-reasons-to-thank-the-ussr-how-we-got-the-cold-war-wrong?ref=scroll"What would the Cold War have been like if, during history class, American kids learned that the world forever owed a debt of gratitude to Soviet forces and Soviet citizens? Their remarkable resilience saved democracy as much as did George Patton and Iwo Jima."The article starts with a spiffing photo of a USAF B-57 (British designed "Canberra" originally).

David Ainsworth ● 2556d8 Comments

"...the world forever owed a debt of gratitude to Soviet forces..."  really?I'm no historian but I do wonder if Russia would have come to Europe's aid if Hitler had not invaded? Surely they were first and foremost defending their own country although the diversion of a million German troops certainly took immense pressure off allied forces in Europe. What do you think David?

Adam Tripp ● 2556d

The Russians were an ally of the Germans at the start of the war so the obvious answer is no, they would not have come to Europe's rescue. However, it was Hitler's big mistake in starting Operation Barbarossa that effectively instigated the turning the tide against German dominance. So therefore, were it not for Russia we would almost definitely have been in a much more perilous situation as the war may have taken a turn for the worse, especially given Germany's investment in rockets and jet aircraft technology, which they were very much using in the latter stages of the war in Europe. It is generally accepted, though less so in the USA for obvious reasons, that Russia won the war. And they certainly took the lion's share of casualties.

Freddie Francis ● 2556d

Complex question and well beyond me. Too many variables. I would not have thought that they would have come to help and indeed they didn't, but apparently offers were made in 1939 (and in 1938 too, I have heard), and they were rejected."Papers which were kept secret for almost 70 years show that the Soviet Union proposed sending a powerful military force in an effort to entice Britain and France into an anti-Nazi alliance. Such an agreement could have changed the course of 20th century history, preventing Hitler's pact with Stalin which gave him free rein to go to war with Germany's other neighbours. The offer of a military force to help contain Hitler was made by a senior Soviet military delegation at a Kremlin meeting with senior British and French officers, two weeks before war broke out in 1939. The new documents, copies of which have been seen by The Sunday Telegraph, show the vast numbers of infantry, artillery and airborne forces which Stalin's generals said could be dispatched, if Polish objections to the Red Army crossing its territory could first be overcome. But the British and French side - briefed by their governments to talk, but not authorised to commit to binding deals - did not respond to the Soviet offer, made on August 15, 1939. Instead, Stalin turned to Germany, signing the notorious non-aggression treaty with Hitler barely a week later."https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.htmlI do not know the strength or truth of this account. However, I have heard long ago of the Soviet-Japanese conflict in the Far East in the summer of 1939:-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_GolI don't think that the Soviet Union would have wanted a two-front war in 1939.By the way, Operation Barbarossa in 1941 involved over 3 million German troops (150 divisions), rather than one million.

David Ainsworth ● 2556d

There is a fascinating book called Babi Yar by Anatoly Kuznetsov, about the terrible treatment of the Jews in the Ukraine during the war, I believe more were killed there than in the better known camps.  It also documents the cruelty of the Russians towards Jewish people and others after the war.The Russians also did terrible things to German and Jewish women after the liberation of Berlin.

Bunny Payne ● 2556d

Ukraine: You think with such a history that NATO and the EU would have been a bit more careful:One would have thought that a neutral Swiss style model would have been better for all concerned, including the EU.Butchered from both sides. Probably using the same age old proven techniques of setting neighbour against neighbour.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yarhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Ed Robinson ● 2556d

Bunny, very few know about Babi Yar. People  were shot and buried  alive in a pit. I remember reading a novel based on Babi Yar as a teenager. It stayed forever in my mind. Checking on Amazon an A. Anatolii published 'Babi Yar : a documentary novel' in 1967 which would possibly be the book I read.And from the Holocaust Encyclopedia: Before the German invasion, some 160,000 Jews resided in Kiev, comprising about 20 percent of the city's population. (In 1941) during the first days of the German occupation, two major explosions, apparently set off by Soviet military engineers, destroyed the German headquarters and part of the city center. The Germans used the sabotage as a pretext to murder the remaining Jews of Kiev. At that time, there were about 60,000 Jews in the city. Most of those who remained were women, children, the ailing,  and the elderly, who had been unable to flee.On September 29-30, 1941, ... according to reports by the Einsatzgruppe to headquarters, 33,771 Jews were massacred in this two-day period. This was one of the largest mass killings at an individual location during World War II. It was surpassed only by the massacre of 50,000 Jews at Odessa by German and Romanian units in October 1941 and by the two-day shooting operation Operation Harvest Festival in early November 1943, which claimed 42,000-43,000 Jewish victims.In the months following the massacre, German authorities stationed at Kiev killed thousands more Jews at Babi Yar, as well as non-Jews including Roma (Gypsies), Communist officials, Soviet prisoners of war, and Soviet civilians. It is estimated that some 100,000 people were murdered at Babi Yar.

Lucille Grant ● 2555d

The same novel as Bunny Payne mentioned. Kuznetsov used "Anatoli" as a pseudonym.Yevtushenko wrote a poem on Babi Yar.

David Ainsworth ● 2555d

Thanks David - I thought it probably was the same one. And yes I know of the poem too.

Lucille Grant ● 2555d