Forum Topic

Doreen Lawrence's Disgusting Slur

Stephen Lawrence's mother claims firefighters tackling Grenfell Tower blaze were 'racist'https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/20/stephen-lawrences-mother-claims-firefighters-tackling-grenfell/How dare she say this? 🤬

Sue Hammond ● 2578d45 Comments

Disgusting comment to make.

Karen Taylor ● 2578d

Slightly more detail in this article:https://www.channel4.com/news/doreen-lawrence-says-grenfell-tragedy-was-linked-to-racism
It appears she was sympathising with one of the survivors but I don't see their was evidence to come to the conclusion she has, but in a free country she's entitled to he opinion and she has had different experiences of the predominantly white establishment than some of us have. Hopefully the inquiry will identify the truth about mistakes made in this horrendous tragedy. Some of the decisions made by the council or their agents do seem rather suspect in determining the work carried out on the building, From the reports of actions taken it would appear the fire brigade did all they could during the incident based on their understanding of the building's structure. Guess we need to wait for the results of the inquiry. It would probably be wise for everyone, including members of parliament, to wait for that. However, it must be heartbreaking for the residents as these thing take so long and must seem very impersonal because of the need to be impartial.
I

Michael Ixer ● 2578d

Just read the article Sue and agree it is pretty awful and unnecessary.Unfortunately you won't get any sympathy on here from the do-gooder liberal elites who probably agree with her.

Paul Game ● 2578d

"Unfortunately you won't get any sympathy on here from the do-gooder liberal elites"I'm not sure why we should sympathise with Sue. Has she been attacked in some way?

David Ainsworth ● 2578d

@Paul. I'd agree that it seems an unnecessary and unhelpful comment to make at the moment. 

Michael Ixer ● 2578d

I don't agree that the firefighters were bothered about the skin colour of anyone they were trying to save and it's unfair to say otherwiseBut she does have a point, in that places where poorer people live will never have the backup of proper health and safety that more affluent areas have.Kensington and Chelsea are one of the richest boroughs in London and yet they seem to neglect their many areas which are not wealthy.  The people who lived in Greville Tower were making complaints and having petitions to the KCBC for YEARS before this terrible fire.

Bunny Payne ● 2578d

Can you imagine the wealthy residents of the K&C area having their letters and complaints ignored by the Council.... I don't think so.

Bunny Payne ● 2578d

You make some really good points in your two posts. I agree with you, and think the racism should be directed at the snobby councillors who look after their own, not the poor fireman.

Paul Game ● 2578d

Good evening Bunny,I agree with you that the firefighters were not considering colour.  It is not in their nature to do so.  The same applies to ambulance crews though some could argue differently towards the police.From the information the firefighters had on the plans of the building, they gave the best advice they could.  They did not know that fire doors were not suitable and that there were no suitable fire alarms - the tragedy of it all is too much for all of us to bear - cannot even think about  the pain of all those relatives...It is also true that such shortcomings did/do not exist in the luxury blocks in other parts of Kensington and Chelsea.The question should therefore be, where has honesty gone?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2578d

Bunny, Ivonne. Excellent points. Let's hope some "honesty" emerges when the inquiry is completed...

Michael Ixer ● 2578d

Well the last I saw of Dany Coton, Chief of London's Fire Brigade, she said they didn't have training for blocks with cladding and they did their best under those dreadful circumstances, for which I think she should be commended.She also said that there seem to be many other blocks of flats with the same sort of cladding in the UK, which is dangerous.Which is a national disgrace, my words not hers.  It really is a National disgrace …watch out for the next huge fire where, pregnant women, small children, male family trying to save their loved one..... ethnic cleansing???

Bunny Payne ● 2578d

Bunny.  Sorry.  Didn't quite understand your last remark re ethical cleansing.  Are you inferring that the white tenants were collateral damage?

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2578d

I thought there were offshore property development companies who refused to pay for their blocks of flats to be made safe insisting that the leaseholders were responsible.  Too many in particular high rises have been built (and refurbished) without the strict safety checks that we used to have.  Scottish Building Regs I understand had been updated more recently and were/are clearer.  A previous fire at Lakanal House ought to have caused a review and changes.

Philippa Bond ● 2578d

"ethnic cleansing"?@Bunny - Can you clarify what you are inferring with that comment. One way to read it is that you are suggesting there's some sort of clandestine conspiracy to allow these fires so as to rid the country of certain groups of people. Please tell me I've misunderstood.

Freddie Francis ● 2577d

Nothing clandestine, nothing conspiratorial, poor people have far less help from councils than wealthy people.  The people from Grenville Tower complained and worried for many years, I don't think they would have been so ignored if they were from a smart apartment block inhabited by wealthy people.

Bunny Payne ● 2577d

Grenfell, sorry

Bunny Payne ● 2577d

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/07/replacing-grenfell-style-cladding-could-take-another-five-yearshttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/17/delays-to-safety-reforms-risk-a-repeat-of-grenfell-disasterhttps://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/lack-of-action-on-grenfell-utterly-shamefulhttps://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/29/world/europe/grenfell-tower-fire.htmlhttps://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/knowledge-landing-page/proposed-regulatory-system-needs-further-development-to-assure-public-safety-says-riba

Philippa Bond ● 2577d

The firefighters who were on site that night (as opposed to the idiots on the phone telling people to stay in their flats) were heroes. This is a disgraceful comment from a woman who sees racism everywhere.

Frances Clarke ● 2576d

Another view from someone who escaped:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/26/grenfell-tower-inquiry-edward-daffern-remember-us-for-change-we-bring

Michael Ixer ● 2572d

I totally agree with you Frances. I listened to several firefighters who called LBC when this story broke and they were gutted and absolutely horrified that anyone could think they were/are in any way racially motivated. Doreen Lawrence's remarks are at best stupid, at worst highly dangerous.  She's stirring up racial tensions in an already highly charged atmosphere.

Sue Hammond ● 2572d

LBF crews put their lives on the line every day.Lions led by donkeys comes to mind.Looking upon it from a different angle. If you lived in Surrey (that well known high rise country) they had a 42m ladder.But the London Fire Brigade didn’t - has anyone explained why not?But according to the PM, fires were things of the past so much better to spend it on water canons!

Ed Robinson ● 2571d

Privatisation of everything doesn't work.  It puts money first.

Philippa Bond ● 2571d

Nothing seems to be joined up any more. The LFB used to do Fire Risk Assessments.  Now when you approach a private firm to do one you may get an ex-fireman doing it.  Two assessors may flag different potential problems.  Buildings need constant management not just when a FRA is due.  A lot of work generally goes into the initial design of a building Including fire compartmentation, the use of fire resistant materials, door closers and the layout so that people can escape and fire has difficulty spreading.  Particularly when alterations and refurbishments are done together with makeovers people may not understand how important the fire rating is on a front door, how important it is to keep fire doors closed (and that they do close properly), and to keep communal lobbies and staircases clear of stored items that could get in your way if there was a fireand you had to leave in a hurry in the dark/smoke .There are so many electrical and electronic items now in use in our homes.  For various reasons they can overheat and catch fire.  There are I believe still Whirlpool family washing machines that have been recalled out there, Which? has called for fridges and freezers to have metal rather than plastic backs, and tumble driers need to be de-fluffed regularly.Interestingly it was recently publicised that children tend not to hear the sound of a smoke alarm going off.  It seems that voices are more likely to wake them.

Philippa Bond ● 2571d

Doreen Lawrence tweeted this today 'I've met @LondonFire & @LondonFBUI am reassured race played no part in their response to the Grenfell Tower fire. Learning about the conditions firefighters faced that night has been insightful, apologies for any upset caused. I'm confident how valued equality is to LFB & FBU'

Lucille Grant ● 2570d

That's good news re Doreen Lawrence.  There is so much still to come on this - and we wonder if it ever will - yet they still keep on building high rise buildings without the RIBA feeling totally happy about the proposals for/and regulation updates.  Both residential and office buildings need attention.  How high do the Simon Snorkel replacements go?

Philippa Bond ● 2570d

Good to see her setting the record straight. Perhaps some of our elected representatives could learn from this example?

Michael Ixer ● 2569d

Ms Hammond"Doreen Lawrence's remarks are at best stupid, at worst highly dangerous.  She's stirring up racial tensions in an already highly charged atmosphere".That of course is the last thing this country would want just now.It needs your sense of balanced moderation especially in commenting on individuals and supposed cultural practices in the Muslim community and wider afield on those that have opposing views when it comes to Brexit.Show us the way !

John Hawkes ● 2569d

Just saw a pig fly past, Michael. Oh no, it was a cloud.

Lucille Grant ● 2569d

Lucille, just beware of the unstable Piggy Max ... Seeing Mr Hawke's comments about inappropriate comments in highly charges atmospheres, I don't recall seeing Ms Patel's apology for suggesting we starve the Irish into submission? Did I miss it?

Michael Ixer ● 2569d

This tragedy has meant that residents of several blocks of flats I've lived in and visited have asked more questions about what to do in case of fire, the importance of the automatic closers on the smoke lobby and leaving nothing in the corridor.  When did you last check your smoke alarm!?https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/landlord-advice/

Philippa Bond ● 2569d

I'm quite shocked to learn that there are still tower blocks of flats with this kind of cladding.  I know it's a question of money, but surely it's a priority which should be enforced by the Government?I don't understand why building regulations were deregulated, I guess from the developers lobby insisting they can build faster to solve our housing crisis??? Another terrible short term bad decision, by people who know they won't have to face the long term consequences, but can show off about how well they seem to have done in the short term.  No morals, just greed.

Bunny Payne ● 2569d

"Another terrible short term bad decision, by people who know they won't have to face the long term consequences, but can show off about how well they seem to have done in the short term.  No morals, just greed."Meanwhile a public service, the fire service, who have to react to the consequences of this, cop a lot of criticism. I don't know how they could prepare for a fire in a building which seems to have been wrapped in the equivalent of solid petrol.

David Ainsworth ● 2569d

Many things appeared to be wrong with this building.  The Fire Service couldn't be expected to know.  If it was an aeroplane there would have been a team of technical people looking at what had happened/what was going wrong. Following Lakanal House fire and other tower fires eg Dubai skyscraper you would have expected tightening of regulations and reassessment by Government.There are still white goods that were catching fire on recall.  There was a fire in a block of flats in Hammersmith.  I remember Andy Slaughter was asking questions in Parliament.https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/uk/consumer-advice/consumer-rights/a27938889/whirlpool-recall-tumble-dryers/The BEIS are interested in whether consumers have signed NDAs with the manufacturers or insurers.

Philippa Bond ● 2568d

As I understand it there is a second report which will go into the details of the building modifications at Grenfell. It does seem a bit the wrong way around as far as Grenfell is concerned. However, given that buildings ther than Grenfell have also been modified with non fire containing materials I guess the fire service needs to look at modifying their procedures to cope with this appalling situation. Given the illicit modifications to Genfell I can't see how the fire brigade could necessarily be expected to deal with something that developed in a way they weren't prepared for. It's easy in hindsight to say they should have reacted differently: another time, another place perhaps someone might have realised what was happening but in that situation people will normally follow the process and procedures they're trained in because deviating from them causes problems and itself may lead to disciplinary action. (You might get me on a rant as to why in an emergency people with knowledge and experience are more important than junior procedure followers but I won't go there!) I feel very sorry for the fire service; ok, they perhaps could have done better and new procedures can be developed but it's not unreasonable to say with the information they had available on that night they would do the same, obviously knowing now the building had been illicitly modified they'd react differently. But that's the value of hindsight!Interesting that this coincides with the US Congress investigation into Boeing's 737 Max and the impossible position the pilots of those two aircraft were put into not knowing there was new software in the planes and not having any training in what it did, or how to counteract it.

Michael Ixer ● 2568d

I disagree. Yes as usual brave people were let down by poor management, equipment and procedures. But this was not the first fire and lessons of those previous fires have not been learnt.Why did LFB have to get an engine with a 43m ladder from Surrey?How many long reaching engines has the LFB got now?What was the plan B if containment failed?Do LFB regularly practice evacuation procedures for high rise residential building?did the LFB control have contact details of all remaining occupants?My understanding is that no record was kept to ring people back one the too late evacuation orders were given.Putting aside issues about the actual building It looks like residents will have to drive this to get the necessary changes.To say that nothing better could have been done condemns us to repeat the same mistakes. This was the attitude that upset me most!

Ed Robinson ● 2568d

"To say that nothing better could have been done condemns us to repeat the same mistakes. This was the attitude that upset me most!"I think that was looking at that particular event at that particular time, not at the future. So we are not condemned to repeat the same mistakes."Why did LFB have to get an engine with a 43m ladder from Surrey?How many long reaching engines has the LFB got now?"Apparently some 64 metre ladders are on order for the LFB. I have seen reference to a firm manufacturing 100 metre ladders in Finland, so taller is available.However the Shard is 306 metres high. There are currently c.150 skyscrapers over 100 metres high in London, completed, under construction or proposed. I would assume that "stay-put" might still be the advice in such buildings. And obviously very few of them are as old as Grenfell Tower, and are built to very different standards, I should think.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/dubai-skyscraper-how-are-supertall-constructions-built-to-withstand-fires-10061204.html

David Ainsworth ● 2568d

I agree it seems back to front.  Lots of things should/could have been different. A joined up approach to  designing, building, managing and living in high-rise buildings is necessary because of the difficulty in so many people evacuating a building at the same time.  Alterations and amendments to anything during these processes can be critical and cause problems.  This is why there are Building Regulations and are or should be people with the technical ability to check and approve designs, specifications and construction.It was the speed with which the fire suddenly took hold and spread completely around the building which changed the whole situation faced by the LFB.  How many long ladders would have been available in the past?

Philippa Bond ● 2568d

I didn't mean to imply that future procedures and actions couldn't be improved based on the experience gained during the Grenfell incident. There do appear to have been some equipment issues - caused by budget cuts? Perhaps the decision to abondon the stay put policy should have been taken earlier but its easy to say that in hindsight sitting in comfort. I think it's unfortunate that someone is being criticised for a poor decision at night and literally in the heat of the moment with a building reacting totally different to that expected because of what are apparently at best incompetent, possibly illegal, decisions made by someone else in the comfort of their office seemingly for purely finasnciasl reasons?

Michael Ixer ● 2568d

I agree with all that you say Michael. Unfortunately it was a plethora of unfortunate circumstances that combined with an unforeseen event and created a perfect storm, that ended in absolute tragedy. There were so many sad stories reported about the victims, but the one that has stuck in my mind is of the man who had two dogs and he refused to leave them. 😥

Sue Hammond ● 2568d

@Sue. Yes, easy to its analyse this clinically from the safety one's armchair but it's the sad personal tragedies -  and acts of devotion and heroism - that matter.

Michael Ixer ● 2568d

I agree that hindsight is a fine thing and I agree with what you both say.  However it isn't just one thing that caused this and we need to be very wary with what we are doing.  Just look at the numbers of apparently outstanding white goods on recall and the suggestion that NDAs are being used!The recent devastating Worcester Park flats fire was in a new build which I read met current Building Regs.  It was only four floors high and luckily everybody got out. 

Philippa Bond ● 2568d

Have they said  what the cause of the Worcester Park fire  was yet, Philippa?

Lucille Grant ● 2568d

Philippa. I agree these things are complex. Yes, it appears the fire started in a refrigerator. Interestingly, I think it's Whirlpool clothes dryers that are subject to recolls, not fridges? In practice any electrical device can cause a fire, including phone chargers. I've not read the actual report myself, but it was reported that the fridge set fire to a PVC window. That shouldn't have been an issue, the fire should have been contained within that flat. Unfortunately it appears because the cladding was flammable it wasn't contained and that started what turned into a disaster ... As I understand it most of the analysis of the building modifications will being thge second report. 

Michael Ixer ● 2568d

Why is this taking so long?  How can there still be so many tall buildings that have still not had their cladding removed?How can 400 architects misread the Building Regulations?  OK that is presuming that there is one per building but even if one is responsible for more than one - it is a ridiculous number.I think there was also mention of missing fire cavity barriers.There appears also to be a problem with another type of cladding called HPL which I understand is a mixture of wood fibre and resin.  There seem to have been several fires in flats with this.  Why weren't our Building Regs updated?  How can they be 20 years old?  Issuing changes that are only required in NEW buildings is ridiculous.  We need to be asking more questions about what is and isn't going on.Yes, I think the Grenfell one was said to have been started by a Hotpoint fridge freezer.  The one in Hammersmith that MP Andy Slaughter was asking questions in the HoC about was an Indesit dryer.  Which? has been running a campaign for the backs of fridges to be metal rather than plastic. I understand this is because the plastic is very flammable and can allow a fire to travel. British Standards have now been changed but that is for NEW ones:https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/fridge-freezers/article/fridge-freezer-safetyI have also seen a fridge freezer re-installed in a fitted kitchen without the ventilation that is required by the manufacturer in the installation instructions.  Then when there was a water leak it was re-installed yet again without enough ventilation. With the Whirlpool ones many people may not realise that it is Whirlpool GROUP machines and that includes Creda, Hotpoint, Indesit and Proline dryers.  https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/uk/consumer-advice/consumer-rights/a27938889/whirlpool-recall-tumble-dryers/There has been a call for the identification marks on white goods to be on metal plates so that problematic machines can be properly identified.

Philippa Bond ● 2567d

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/grenfell-tower-fire-hotpoint-fridge-freezer-mp-andy-slaughter

Philippa Bond ● 2566d