Forum Topic

Project Fear it is not!

Now that the government has been forced to publish its own warnings re Brexit no deal please could any of the Brexiteers think again. Were their lives really so terrible under the EU that they honestly think it's worth inflicting this degree of pain on everybody. Shortages of food, and especially medicines etc in the event of No deal.

Jane Carter ● 2186d60 Comments

There are several regular posters who just stopped posting - whereas others move away and continue.  I remember missing Fraser Pearce's knowledgeable and informative posts. I too send my condolences to Um Aayil and to his children.

Philippa Bond ● 105d

Ms Carter'May I suggest that reopening the Brexit debate on this thread is now inappropriate and the thread should be concluded'.Agreed.Why don't you start a new one for the UK and EU relationship is becoming both current and politically important.

John Hawkes ● 105d

I agree, Jane.   I would like to send my condolences to Fraser’s widow, Um Aayil, and his children.

Martine Guy ● 106d

I am very sorry to hear the tragic news about Fraser Pearce.  I wish you and your family courage and strength to overcome these sad news and hope that you will all be able to treasure the happy memories that you have.

Ivonne Holliday ● 106d

This thread is nearly 6 years out of date. I am sure we all concur with Lucille’s sensitive expression of sympathy to Fraser’s widow. May I suggest that reopening the Brexit debate on this thread is now inappropriate and the thread should be concluded.

Jane Carter ● 106d

Jane, I completely agree with you. It's very sad to hear about Fraser, and it seems inappropriate to me continuing an argument on such an old thread.

Michael Ixer ● 106d

Mr Robinson'The EU is now actively operating as a super state suppressing political view that that do not align with bureaucrats be they conservative or pro-palestinian.'In Germany their Secret Service is investigating a legitimate political Party for its supposed 'extreme views' on immigration."Germany's domestic secret service battles far-right AfDMarcel Fürstenauhttps://www.dw.com/en/germanys-domestic-secret-service-battles-far-right-afd/a-68350993#:~:text=The%20Federal%20Office%20for%20the%20Protection%20of%20the,far-right%20Alternative%20for%20Germany%20party%20%28AfD%29%20is%20anti-constitutional.05/13/2024May 13, 2024'Germany's domestic intelligence service has won another legal battle against the far-right Alternative for Germany. The agency's job is to safeguard the democratic principles set out in the constitution'.Sounds a bit Nazi-like to me.Soon we will have MI5 investigating the Labour Party for its poor record on suppressing illegal immigration and its anti-Israel/pro-Palestine policy in the Middle East !

John Hawkes ● 106d

Mr MacleodI have no disrespect for our 'European neighbours'.It's just I am not sure I wish my life to be in anyway directed by an unelected (and thence not replaceable) EU Commission in Brussels led by an ex-German Foreign Minister.

John Hawkes ● 106d

This thread is nearly 6 years out of date. I am sure we all concur with Lucille’s sensitive expression of sympathy to Fraser’s widow. May I suggest that reopening the Brexit debate on this thread is now inappropriate and the thread should be concluded?

Jane Carter ● 107d

The UK still has not addressed many of the reasons that caused Brexit.Unlike other democracies they had referendums at various steps. Some countries had several on the same issue which seemed comical but the people did have their say.Unfortunately the UK democracy is not very mature. Although great strides were made after the great wars, reform more or less stopped.It is better to have smaller disagreements between people and state every few years rather than the large one we had over Brexit.Neither the Government of the day or the official opposition, perhaps the whole of parliament were fit to handle the situation. Some put party before country (Corbyn) others put themselves.Time however has not stood still in Europe. The EU the UK left no longer exists. Power has shifted in Europe as a result of Brexit and the war.The EU is now actively operating as a super state suppressing political view that that do not align with bureaucrats be they conservative or pro-palestinian.I think Brexit was a mistake an the logical thing would have to fallen back to a Norway type deal.However I think that the UK leaving was a big loss politically to the EU for the smaller countries.With every trade deal the government announces we seem to lose more than we gain.Inside the EU or outside people seem to look for any excuse to fix the issues the UK has.

Ed Robinson ● 107d

I'm so sorry for your loss. Fraser was a kind man who I met a number of times and I wondered how he was. So very sad to learn that he took his own life. May his memory be a blessing 😥

Lucille Grant ● 107d

Hello, sorry for repeating this message. Fraser Pearce was my husband. He took his own life 5 years ago. It was a surprise and we're still sad and angry. He was kind and loving and missed by all who loved him. Our children are teenagers and he would be very proud. I'm still finding out nice things from people who knew him. Thank you for your nice comments here. He cared about people.

Um Aayil ● 107d

Hello, Fraser Pearce was my husband. He took his own life 5 years ago. It was a surprise and we're still sad and angry. He was kind and loving and missed by all who loved him. I'm still finding out nice things from people who knew him. Thank you for your nice comments here. He cared about people.

Um Aayil ● 107d

The economic situation may well be worse for the EU and in particular Germany than Merkel currently thinks. The negative ECB interest rate (currently -0.5%), the new €20 Bn a month ECB purchase of more non-performing bonds and Deutsche Bank's technical insolvency do not inspire trust in the Euro. As I mention in another post, following Boris' meeting with Trump, it is rumoured that Trump is holding back on the imposition of further, more punitive tariffs on the EU until we have left. For Fraser's benefit in particular, I must emphasise that this is a rumour and not fact but it did come from a usually very reliable friend.

Roland Willis Gilmore ● 2185d

Good to hear Fraser's highly informed views.  I wish him well.From the Guardian, no less, on Wednesday.The UK poses a threat if it fails to match regulation standards of the bloc says German Chancellor, highlighting the economic danger posed by Britain if it is allowed to become a Singapore-on-Thames, as Johnson's envoy outlined a plan to ditch the UK's commitments to stay aligned to the EU's social and environmental standards.Mrs Merkel said "But the fact remains that after the withdrawal of Britain, we have an economic competitor at our door.On the one hand, as Europeans, we are weaker with Britain's exit - that has to be said - but on the other hand, this is the moment to develop new strengths."France's minister for Europe, Amelie de Montchalin, accused the UK of breaking "the spirit" of the negotiations by trying to strike "mini-deals" with independent EU member states.  She was speaking after a meeting of the 26 EU ambassadors to France, from which the British Ambassador was excluded, and said "we cannot commit today, because we have no concrete scenarios yet".Germany's environmental record has been a disaster, and the country is going deeper into recession.  The French Metro workers are now on strike, demanding the ability to retire at age 52.Nothing wrong with Singapore, a booming free market founded by the British, where Marxist Mugabe sought medical treatment.  Probably the safest city in the World, in every sense, with the most popular passport on Earth.  Bring it on.

Chantal Blake-Milton ● 2185d

Hello Fraser,Firstly, my apologies for having misspelt you name in a previous message.Regarding your response of 12/09/19 at 19.01hs.I just mentioned the US issue in response to your comment.  No problem in dropping this.As far as the Eurozone is concerned, that is one of "arms (as in limbs)" of the EU.The Euro was a contentious matter when it was introduced and it continues to have its problems today.  It is a problem I believe does not apply to the UK as it is not in the Eurozone.  If I remember correctly, Cameron said the bailout for Greece and Italy (as well as Spain, Portugal and Ireland?) were a problem for the Eurozone and the UK would not be contributing to it.I am no financial expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I seem to remember that the Bank of England pursued a policy of quantitative easing and low interest rates as a result of the financial crisis of 2008 which, by the way, started in the US and not the EU.As far as the German banking sector is concerned, as the main contributor to the budget of the EU (over 20%?), it had an enormous involvement in the bailouts for PIGS as well as the immigration problem.  So am not surprised it is having repercussions today.  It does not help that worldwide trade is at the moment rather difficult as a result of the US-China trade war.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2185d

Why did you have to spoil a post wishing Fraser well by being your 'usual' rude self? Not sure  your posts encourage newbies either tbh.

Lucille Grant ● 2185d

Thank you, Jane. Yes all fine at the moment! Have a good weekend.

Lucille Grant ● 2185d

Thankyou Lucille. I am sure you are right. in my earlier post today I also wished him well. I hope you are too

Jane Carter ● 2185d

@FraserGood morning Fraser, it's so good to see your sensible and informed posts on the forum again. There is far too much gloom and doom posted daily from a small group of self-righteous dull posters who think copying links from the Guardian makes them right.🙄 Unfortunately their combined negativity and miserable vibe does not encourage new posters. You are indeed a breath of fresh air and I hope you will long continue to be so. xx

Sue Hammond ● 2185d

FraserI totally accept that your knowledge of the inner workings of the EU is vastly superior to mine and probably everybody else's on this forum. What I was questioning is your use of single sentence paragraphs which works against a coherent argument and gives the impression of a series of disconconected points. However I was not projecting because I have not insulted you personally and accept your apology thankyou and wish you well. Much too my grandson's disappointment I also 'now naff-allabout football'

Jane Carter ● 2186d

Fraser and I met, alongside Matt, Simon and Roland if memory serves correctly, about ten years ago. He and I continued to have coffee together occasionally when I was in Putney and he was a good friend at a time I needed one.He tends to stick to facts rather than suppositions. He's is a  kind and thoughtful man and even if I don't agree with his POV all the time I'm sure he had no intention of being rude to Jane with one of his postings. It is unlike him.Hope you are ok Fraser x

Lucille Grant ● 2186d

Fraser. Yes, you definitely have an advantage on facts if you've read and studied the EU treaties in detail. I'd definitely agree that Brexit, specifically a no deal one having seen Yellowhammer, is an an acute risk. However, surely the chronic risk of the Eurozone (of which approximately one third of the EU, including the UK, aren't members?) depends on how it is managed in the future. And surely, the Eurozone is only one aspect of the EU; there are other areas: freedom of movement, scientific and educational collaboration including mutual recognition of qualifications, common product standards, stringent data privacy rules, etc that some might see as benefits. Some of these, such as they GDPR, the UK will have to comply with anyway to do business with the EU, and if we're not in the EU we won't have a say in future revisions? Just playing devils advocate here, but if we're still in the EU we should be able to influence its future path and thus adjust the chronic risks of remaining a member?

Michael Ixer ● 2186d

Jane,I know naff-all about football. If this conversation were about the Premier League, I would lack the capacity to make reasonable conclusions. I wouldn't think it uncivil if you pointed out this fact.I used to work for the EU. I even calculated the stuff like refugee flows and queues at ports.For the record, I didn’t vote to leave the EU either. Over the years, I’ve tried to refer back to the EU’s own primary sources when contributing to this forum (the treaties, etc).  I doubt you’ve read any of the treaties and few primary sources – and why should you or anyone else here you be expected to? I was paid to – you paid me. From my perspective, however, by limiting themselves to secondary sources people lack (is ‘limit’ a more civil word?) the capacity to make reasoned conclusions (literally, based on reason rather than emotion and secondary opinion). ---There are negatives for the UK in leaving and remaining. Did you really think otherwise?You ask directly whether Brexit is “really worth all the pain?”. From who’s perspective, over what timescale and in relation to what?Since you deserve an answer, however, my opinion is that the worst case short-to-medium term pain of Brexit poses less of a medium-to-long term systemic risk than the Eurozone. P.S. I’ve re-read the above and it’s not as clear as I hoped. I’m sorry.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

I’ve always enjoyed your informed posts Fraser so please don’t stop you are like a breath of fresh air.  What many forget here is that we will all be dead soon and much of their angst posting is just that.

Suzanne Taylor ● 2186d

If you don’t like the comments, Freddie, don’t read ‘em.My comment to Jane was an observation, not an insult. It’s your choice to be offended or insulted by the truth. Being offended also provides a pretext for people to duck out of the conversation when challenged.---I used to write INTSUMs about geopolitical risk and security. Every word of every EU treaty pored over. Advised the Commission on matters ranging from organised crime to taxation.It’s why I’m now a one-trick pony here, only really writing when I see opinion on the EU confused for fact. Doesn’t mean I’m right though, just perhaps slightly more informed. I’ll be dead soon. My wife will write something when it happens. Life’s too short. The only person I ever seriously took the piss out of here was myself.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Instead of blessing me you could perhaps in a civil manner answer my original question? Of course there are things wrong with the EU, but now that even the government acknowledge the potential negatives of leaving, is it really worth all the pain?

Jane Carter ● 2186d

God bless you, Sue - and Jane!

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Twisted reasoning? Perhaps the leavers accept that they will suffer, but believe that their opponents will suffer much more, as they have much more to lose.

David Ainsworth ● 2186d

Hi Ivonne,If you don’t mind, I won’t say anything about the US issue.---I fully agree, however, that the UK is facing an acute political crisis (disgraceful, unnecessary and avoidable, in my opinion). The Eurozone, however, is facing a systemic crisis – hence my earlier allusion to the ECB and Draghi announcements today. This crisis was anticipated even before the euro was born, articulated by Romani Prodi in 2001, then head of the European Commission:“I am sure the Euro will oblige us to introduce a new set of economic policy instruments. It is politically impossible to propose that now. But some day there will be a crisis and new instruments will be created.”In short, they gambled the eurozone to bring about political integration, the “new instruments” being proposed in 2015 and endorsed by the Presidents of the European Commission, the Euro Summit, the Eurogroup, ECB and European Parliament. The ECB’s spooked by the potential effects of quantitative easing (QE) and negative interest rate policy (NIRP) on bank income, appetite for risk and monetary policy – which leads us to the ECB announcements earlier today. Allegedly.---We’ve seen comments today on this forum of Russia and China being threats. Short of war, however, I’ve the awful feeling the German banking sector may be the biggest threat to global stability.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

I did  understand  their point of view Freddie, also they vote Labour and always have done.  In 2016 they didn't think things could get any worse than they have done thanks to austerity measures.

Lucille Grant ● 2186d

@Fraser 14.35"Thanks Jane.They probably seem unconnected because you lack the capacity to connect them. What are your views on the ECB’s policy announcements today, by the way?"Lol. Frantic googling going on @chezcarter ..

Sue Hammond ● 2186d

Then that's a rather twisted bit of reasoning. "I feel helpless but look, I can do something destructive to get my point across, never mind that I'll suffer in the process". Glad to hear they've seen the light even if it's most likely too flipping late.

Freddie Francis ● 2186d

Fraser. You are sounding like a complete hipocrite with your direct insult directed at Janenot to mention your absolutely patronising tone. If you can't argue your point in a civil manner you're not worth the time taken to read your posts.

Freddie Francis ● 2186d

I spent this afternoon with a younger friend (same age as my daughter) whose family live in an ex mining village near Sheffield. Although they voted  Leave they have since changed their minds and would vote Remain now. The reason they gave for voting Leave had nothing to do with Europe but everything to do with  the Conservative  policy of austerity. Once again places like my friend's Yorkshire home village feel that everything in London-centric and  money is spent  here when they need funds to spend on infrastructure that we take for granted.  I have heard this stated by other friends as well. They voted to Leave because they felt they had nothing to lose.

Lucille Grant ● 2186d

Hello Frazer,Thank you for your reply which has baffled me completely! It's a multi-variant, no single reason for Remain or Leave.... Hmmmmm, It is the main (unspoken) reason for the leave campaign!  Care to explain a bit more what you mean by this, please?You say that the US, for example, is in the midst of perhaps its greatest political scandal (while the UK is in the midst of the greatest political crisis for a generation).  Did the US political scandal have a bearing on the posture of a previous UK government?  Hmmmm, care to expand please?  Do you mean Theresa May as PM and Trump when he assumed the presidency?  Or do you mean previous UK governments with previous US presidents?  I am sorry, I could not listen to the ECB report - will try to do so later. Thank you

Ivonne Holliday ● 2186d

You’re projecting, Jane.Draghi’s last ECB press conference is over. What did you think?

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Very true, Sean. When challenged they just resort to personal insults.

Jane Carter ● 2186d

I agree the MSM is biased. The Telegraph is rabidly pro-brexit, as is the Mail. The Times is also super right-wing, but luckily behind a paywall. Most are owned by billionaires and used as their biased mouthpiece.The papers are so biased that when you see a fairly balanced news report on the BBC or Ch4 it looks left-wing to your distorted eyes

Sean Hodges ● 2186d

Thanks Jane.They probably seem unconnected because you lack the capacity to connect them. What are your views on the ECB’s policy announcements today, by the way?

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Yes I expected your predictable response. You always 'complelety agree' with Fraser. Not surprising as you both seem to produce a series of unconnected points rather than a reasoned argument which you complain others lack. If you are trying to imply that the Scottish judges were biased, even Johnson has said they are learned and impartial. Reducing Campbell's sentence may be right or wrong but irrelevant to the judges' decision on the prorogation of Parliament. Not clear what Merkal's language skills signify.

Jane Carter ● 2186d

The link to the live ECB press conference:https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=WrwQSFe_Dlo&feature=youtu.be

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Sean et al I'm also not too concerned about closer European integration although I think EU  bureaucracy and alleged corruption does need investigation: in Mrs May's style my mantra would be "Remain and Reform" 🙂 I am concerned about the impact of a no deal Brexit on both the UK's economy and, let's be honest, my own standard of living; I also have concerns about scientific collaboration, certainly in the short term, and possible impact on the GFA if border controls are implemented at some stage (which does seem unavoidable if there's no agreement). Chaos is avoidable: either delay the exit to negotiate the "easy deal" we were promised or, let's honest, and accept we were lied to and "Remain and Rethink" - that is, have another referendum. 

Michael Ixer ● 2186d

I totally agree with you. We would not lose our national identity by further integration with Europe. Does being in Greece, say, feel the same as say being in Germany? EU countries have very distinct nationall identities. It's not a federal Europe we need to fear but the growing might and totalitarian states like China and Russia. It's not only about trade. It does not matter how tall he is, Macron is right to believe in the EU peace project.

Jane Carter ● 2186d

I would welcome it, have zero issue with closer integration.

Matt Palmer ● 2186d

As one half of a "Johnnie Foreigner" with a Belgian mother I know Brussels very well.  It is a self-seeking mafia amidst an already divided country, where my French-speaking cousin will only address me in English. I completely agree with Fraser that there is no reasoned argument to stay in the EU, especially now that Germany is going deeper into recession.  We have seen what happened to Greece, and now have seven largely lame-dog countries waiting in the wings to join.Why would an increasingly desperate Eurozone seek to barricade their own ports to stop the export of their own goods?  Insulin has a life of at least one year, so who would be blocking the import of this and other drugs?  Mrs Merkel, fluent in Russian, wants a deal with Gasprom, to benefit her own nation.  The French and Dutch have decimated our fish supplies, so I wonder where the Project Fear idea of "illegal fisherman" will come from?The MSM is totally EU biassed, with the BBC fawning over EU alumni Peter Mandelson (photographed wearing a £21,000 watch whilst shopping with Jeffrey Epstein) now Chairman and Co-founder of the Global Counsel.  Bilderbergers Clarke and Stewart are also regulars, whilst anyone vaguely in favour of leaving is derided or interrupted.The Guardian et al made much of the Scottish Court's decision but failed to tell us that Lord Carloway opposes any judicial interests register which may include details of outside professional financial and persona links.  I wonder why?It also failed to tell us that Lord Drummond Young was the very judge who on the same day reduced the 27 year sentence imposed on Aaron Campbell for the brutal rape and murder of 6-year-old Alesha MacPhail, to 24 years.

Chantal Blake-Milton ● 2186d

I never understand why the terror of further EU integration. We would inevitably be a big part of any federal authority, as we are rich, have a large population and have english as our first language.The US is a fine example of the benefits of federalisation - they became one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world by federalising.Europeans are more like us than any othe peoples in the world. We are geographically and historically close to them. We will always be closely bound to them by trade, history, DNA etc. Why not gain the full advantages of union?

Sean Hodges ● 2186d

“Please consider that all this Brexit shambles is based on the desperate need of avoiding the new EU rules against money laundering which means everybody in the EU needs to declare monies they have in offshore accounts.  It comes into force on 1 November 2019...”It's multi-variant, Ivonne, no single reason for Remain or Leave.The US, for example, is in the midst of perhaps its greatest political scandal. Did this have a bearing on the posture of a previous UK government?There’s also a report on the German banking system that’s doing the rounds at the ECB. Allegedly.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

“The reasoned arguments have been posted multiple times in the past - or didn't you notice?”Yep, this forum’s a goldmine of reason.Apologies, Alexander, when I see people patronising others I tend to switch off. So, I may have indeed missed the reasoned arguments. Different folks, different strokes though – ‘reasonable’ to you might not seem so to me. We’ve seen a Yellowhammer quote on this forum today that any one of us could’ve checked for “reasoned argument”. No-one did though.If you don’t mind, I’ll stick to quoting the treaties, agreements, regulations, communiques and product codes. It’s a filter against the BS and a cure for insomnia.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Good morning Ivonne,The next stages of EU integration have indeed been published and articulated in state of the union speeches. The next treaty’s good to go, the enabler of these proposed changes.While there’s no change planned for the UK with regard to the euro and Schengen (as far as I know), the EU is planning Economic Union, Financial Union, Fiscal Union by 2025 as the precursor to Political Union. The point is, what then would the UK’s role be as an EU member state? The Lisbon Treaty helped the Commission move ahead without the need for unanimous member state agreement – with von der Leyen proposing extending this into key areas this past week alone.Back in the 90s, Jacques Delors envisaged a “European village” of complementary systems, with countries free to integrate at different speeds while retaining joint decision making (allowing non-EC members to join the Single Market, for example).This “village” mindset, however, no longer exists. When Economic, Financial and Fiscal Union come, individual member states can be locked out of the EU decision making process by the majority (perhaps quite rightly – why should individual states have the right to block others wanting deeper union?).So, if the UK remained within the EU but out of the euro – and, by extension, out of Economic, Financial and Fiscal Union – the UK would be resigned to the periphery, subject to the decision making of those at the centre without the power of veto.We wouldn’t accept this from a US trade deal. We should at least debate this with regard to the EU.There's no status quo with Remain or Leave.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

"Why would people vote to leave without an official plan for leaving? ...And why would people vote to remain with such superficial knowledge of the EU?It beggars belief."Our knowledge of the EU may be superficial, but we are in the EU, and so there is a reality for us to know, if we try. Leaving the EU, possibly without a deal, seems like a desperate gamble, a leap in the relative dark. To make such a large change needs an overwhelming argument in its favour. And the case has not been made, or, if it has, it does not appear to have convinced a majority.

David Ainsworth ● 2186d

The reasoned arguments have been posted multiple times in the past - or didn't you notice?

Alexander MacLeod ● 2186d

Good morning Fraser,Thank you for your posting.The UK has/had the best of both worlds in the EU because it is not in the Euro, not in the Schengen area and has greater flexibility in home affairs than the other Members of the EU.  I have not heard of any move to modify these.I have not heard of a new treaty being drafted and am not too sure what you mean it being discussed at state of the union speeches.While I can understand your comments on carrying out a study on the costs of continuing to be members of the EU, I would suggest that the benefits of doing so should be examined too; a very useful exercise.  But this would be seen as detrimental by the leave campaign.Please consider that all this Brexit shambles is based on the desperate need of avoiding the new EU rules against money laundering which means everybody in the EU needs to declare monies they have in offshore accounts.  It comes into force on 1 November 2019...

Ivonne Holliday ● 2186d

“For some 40 years there has been widespread ignorance in the UK about the EU…”Absolutely, Alexander. We see it repeated here on this forum almost every day.---“Incidentally, I have noticed that in the last two years the bulk of Leave contributions lacked reasoned argument and relied instead on blunt statements of (unsupported) opinion, and in the more egregious cases pure prejudice.”I disagree, Alexander. I think your assessment perhaps applies to Remainers and Leavers. Take, for example, the following comment:“The only thing hardline brexiters can hold on to now is a perverse ideology rooted in disrespect for our European neighbours.”A ‘blunt statement’ lacking ‘reasoned argument’ by the other, unreasonable Alexander MacLeod on this forum (not you, obviously).

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

“The only thing hardline brexiters can hold on to now is a perverse ideology rooted in disrespect for our European neighbours.”Perhaps. Such views, however, are also a good figleaf for Remainers to avoid addressing the consequences of remaining in the EU.The next treaty’s written in draft form. It’s been articulated in state of the union speeches and official communiques. If we remain in the EU, do Remainers want the UK to join the euro, then full Economic Union, Financial Union, Fiscal Union and Political Union (all within, what, the next 15 years?)? If so, at what cost? If not, post-Lisbon Treaty, why remain in the EU?For every Yellowhammer analysis on the consequences of Brexit, there’s an equivalent on the consequences of remaining. Why haven’t we seen this? Why isn’t it being debated? Why is there more coverage of Trump’s State of the Union than Juncker’s (and von der Leyen’s)?In the first referendum in the 1970s, Whitehall produced a white paper analysing the consequences of Remaining. It’s focus was 30-50 years in the future. What’s the official assessment for the next 50 years, should we remain?At the moment, we’re ignoring the other side of the equation. Deliberately.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Yes I agree with you. I think anti foreigners, anti' crappy lazy European countries' is the basis of many - not all -of the hardline Brexiteer view. That's probably why they resist stating why they are so desperate to leave. I find it hard to believe  that the undemocratic nature of the EU -which s false anyway - kept them awake at night.

Jane Carter ● 2186d

Fraser:  For some 40 years there has been widespread ignorance in the UK about the EU, about how it functions, and about the benefits we have derived from membership - plus an ingrained mistrust of "Johnny Foreigner", all too manifest in many contributions to this Forum. Incidentally, I have noticed that in the last two years the bulk of Leave contributions lacked reasoned argument and relied instead on blunt statements of (unsupported) opinion, and in the more egregious cases pure prejudice.

Alexander MacLeod ● 2186d

Not sure what relevance "nice and fluffy" has. It's quite simple, the EU will protect its members' interests. If the UK breaches its treaty with the EU and leaves without a deal the EU can't be expected to look after the UK as it's the UK's unilateral decision to leave without a deal - assuming Johnson doesn't manage to agree a new dewask, which seems unlikely?

Michael Ixer ● 2186d

“Were their lives really so terrible under the EU that they honestly think it's worth inflicting this degree of pain on everybody.”If the EU were so nice and fluffy, the UK wouldn’t be facing these alleged shortages. If British politicians were half-competent, we wouldn’t be facing these alleged shortages either.Why would people vote to leave without an official plan for leaving? ...And why would people vote to remain with such superficial knowledge of the EU?It beggars belief.

Fraser Pearce ● 2186d

Well said, Jane. The only thing hardline brexiters can hold on to now is a perverse ideology rooted in disrespect for our European neighbours.

Alexander MacLeod ● 2186d