Forum Topic

Begum Baby

Now that it's been confirmed Begum's baby is dead I am shocked that there isn't a long weeping and wailing thread about it. Where are all the Guardian reading, angst-ridden hand wringers this morning?🤔In particular, Bunny, Lucille and Caroline who all castigated me for referring to ISIS-lover Begum as "it" in a previous thread? Bunny apparently reported my post and the moderator removed it.  Lucille and Caroline also joined in, as shown below. Macbeth anyone?🙄Bunny 20.2.19 13.47"Sue, your use of "it" and "it's" in the context of describing a human being is so incredibly offensive I am seriously thinking of reporting you."Lucille 20.2.19 13.57"Same here Bunny. Sue shows her true light."Caroline 20.2.19 15.44"By dehumanising Shamima Begum Sue is behaving in very much the same way as ISIS does towards those it dislikes."So, Caroline compared me to ISIS but that was apparently okay? Unfortunately I didn't see it at the time otherwise I would have reported her. Anyway, back on topic. Where are all the Begum sympathisers this morning?

Sue Hammond ● 2804d62 Comments

Regardless of who the mother is, surely everyone regards the death of an innocent child as a tragedy.

Craig Fordham ● 2804d

Yes the baby was innocent and didn't deserve a mother like Begum.

Sue Hammond ● 2804d

Children can't choose their parents, Sue. There's no knowing if the baby had been taken from the refugee campy earlier whether he would have died or not but he is an innocent victim whatever we may think about his mother and her views, (which I abhor). BTW I still maintain your use of the  word 'it' instead of 'she' was disgusting.

Lucille Grant ● 2804d

I seems that Ms Hammond believes that she can even question people's silences.

David Ainsworth ● 2804d

Sue: It is unlike you to be so thin-skinned when criticised. My comparison still stands I'm afraid.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2804d

Sue, they are all too busy stockpiling food & medicine in anticipation of Brexit!

Adam Tripp ● 2804d

Not all of us Adam. Although I have sympathy for people who rely on medicines and who must be worried whatever the outcome on 29 March. I'm due to collect my two monthly prescription for a number of meds at the beginning of April and have my fingers crossed they will all be available.

Lucille Grant ● 2804d

Right Adam! Silly me!😳 How did I forget Armageddon is only 20 days away!?🙀

Sue Hammond ● 2804d

I also queried the silences of certain posters re Treasury surplus and Norway Fund investments, for the next 30 years plus.  Like the BBC, no comments

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2804d

Sue, just to be clear, I did not report you, nor did I particularly want to.  I just wanted you to know how offensive they were.  I had no idea they had been removed.

Bunny Payne ● 2804d

I mistrust this woman so much, I wondered initially when they said she was pregnant if it was tru.  Then the baby was born and we didn't see it for ages, just a bundle of clothing.  Then eventually we did, although I feared for the poor thing that it would be smothered, and there was always another woman in close attendance.Now it has died, allegedly, and Begum will be looking for other ways to curry favour and worm her way back to the West.  Believe me Sue, I am not supporting this woman.

Bunny Payne ● 2804d

@Bunny 17.07@Bunny"Now it has died, allegedly, and Begum will be looking for other ways to curry favour and worm her way back to the West.  Believe me Sue, I am not supporting this woman."Now IT has died? Don't you mean now HE has died? You were so outraged when I called Begum 'it' and now you do the same! Unbelievable hypocrisy.  Will Caroline now accuse you of dehumanising the baby? I bet she doesn't.

Sue Hammond ● 2804d

@Bunny 16.49"Sue, just to be clear, I did not report you, nor did I particularly want to.  I just wanted you to know how offensive they were.  I had no idea they had been removed."I apologise to you Bunny if it wasn't you but you did say you were thinking of it. To be honest I didn't realise myself until quite recently, the moderator didn't have the courtesy to let me know my post had been removed, or who had reported it. I have a fair idea of who it was now.

Sue Hammond ● 2804d

Which of your posts was removed?

David Ainsworth ● 2804d

Hi.  I am a human sympathiser.  You, clearly, are not.I am not surprised that material that appears to have been written by a reptile has been removed.PLEASE put the hate away!

James Francis ● 2804d

Well said James.

Lucille Grant ● 2804d

I think calling the baby 'it' was just a slip rather than 'dehumanising' him. I am not even sure that calling Begum 'it' is so insulting. Insulting to whom? Yes if it's an insult to women in general but I hardly think Begum will be studying the Putney Forum. What dehumanising does do is strip her of any responsibility for her own  actions. But she is responsible surely?

Jane Carter ● 2804d

Had Sue suggested the idea that Begum was not pregnant I dread to think of the'outrage' on this forum!I also find it extremely insulting and obnoxious for the word reptile to be used as a personal adjective.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2804d

Why? That's rather insulting to reptiles and I believe Ms Hammond has a pet Python ?

Jane Carter ● 2804d

Agreed James. An innocent child had died and what's the result: hateful insults being thrown around on the forum. Irrespective of whether its mother was malicious, stupid, naive, groomed or misguided nothing is going to change the child's death and it's difficult to determine whether, in the time available, anything could have been done to remove the child from its hostile environment - although it's interesting that journalists seemed to be able to travel and return from this region. Irrespective of  that, what is being missed is that many children in the middle east who do not have patents from western nations but just have the misfortune to have parents living there are potential victims of air strikes or the crumbling infrastructure and medical services caused by this airstrikes and other warfare in the area - Syria, Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, ... Something to think about?

Michael Ixer ● 2804d

Go to see the Film "Capernaum".

Caroline Whitehead ● 2803d

Capernaum looks a very interesting film, Caroline. I found this quote from the director Nadine Labaki: 'At the end of the day, those children are really paying a very high price for our conflicts, and our wars, and our systems, and our stupid decisions, and governments. I felt the need to talk about the problem, and I was thinking, if those children could talk, or could express themselves, what would they say? What would they tell us, this society that ignores them?'

Lucille Grant ● 2803d

2 British sisters who married ISIS jihadis, with 5 children , and are being held in a Syrian detention centre, were stripped of their British citizenship.  Why no outcry for them?  How many more will surface?

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2803d

Unlike Ms Begum they don't seem to have been interviewed by the press and it's not clear if they have challenged the loss of their British citizenship, which according to a BBC news item might have happened spring 2018. I suspect there could be a number of cases but as the Home Office doesn't comment on individual cases I guess we'll only hear about them if the individual, or a family member, friend or acquaintance who's aware of it, speaks to the press - perhaps some of them don't care?

Michael Ixer ● 2803d

It is possible that, as Daesh unravels, many more people who joined them from Britain will surface. If they then have their British citizenship removed, what then will happen to them?

Caroline Whitehead ● 2803d

@Michael"perhaps some of them don't care?"Why should anyone care? I certainly don't. However, now the details are out in the open I expect some greedy opportunistic lawyers will jump on these cases and fleece this country by claiming legal aid to fight for the girls' British status to be restored, and for their repatriation back to the UK. Probably their families will junp on the freebie bandwagon too. The legal aid system in this country is a joke at times.

Sue Hammond ● 2803d

In international law they can't have their British citizenship revoked if it leaves them stateless. So those that don't have dual citizenship will eventually be able to return to the UK, although I assume it's up to them or their family to organise and fund that? Or where there's a misunderstanding or mistake, as may be the case for Ms Begum, it will go to appeal. Not sure what happens if someone has dual nationality and the other state withdraws it - presumably which ever state withdraws it first transfers the responsibility not to make the individual stateless to the other country?

Michael Ixer ● 2803d

And if Britain won't have them, what then?

Caroline Whitehead ● 2803d

Quite frankly I personally don't care.  They didn't care for my country or me when they made the choice to join in warfare with a group dedicated to destroying my country , home , family, and friends and to impose Sharia law upon us.I find it really difficult to comprehend how people can be sympathetic to them. Don't think the families of those publically decapitated by them, or families of Manchester bomb attack would be too sympathetic either

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2803d

Su do you really own a python?

Peter Miles ● 2803d

Well perhaps we should spare some sympathy for the Kurds who, having fought bravely to defeat Daesh, are now landed with dangerously overcrowded refugee camps filled with people for whom nobody else seems prepared to take responsibility.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2803d

Peter.  so pleased you asked that question. Was going to put a post up are there any other contributors who own or have owned exotic pets.  Think I'll do it whilst I'm thinking about it.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2803d

Caroline.  So agree with you.  Any country who takes in refugees needs help. There ought to be an international mechanism for aid, not left to volunteers.A worldwide problem

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2803d

Hi Peter. Yes I do own a mature male Royal Python🐍called Snakey and he's approx 6' long. He will be 21 this year and is now fully grown. I would post a couple of photos but they're hosted on an old version of photobucket and none of the links appear to work on this forum. I could transfer the pics to my iphone but I don't know if they can be uploaded?

Sue Hammond ● 2803d

The Kurds have not "taken in" the refugees, they are stuck with them because those fleeing the collapse of the Caliphate are on their territory. In fact the Kurds have no country of their own, although they would dearly love to see Kurdistan come into being.We should be taking responsibility for our own people and not leaving the Kurds with our "dirty washing".

Caroline Whitehead ● 2803d

@Caroline, I quite agree, the Kurds have put these people in camps, which is far better than letting them die, but they cannot be held responsible for keeping them and cannot let them go as there is a strong likelihood that they will regroup in some way and start another jihad.This is an international problem.  Incidentally, I wonder what would happen if P.Trump started autographing the Koran? (as he has been doing the Bible, allegedly)

Bunny Payne ● 2803d

Are there others like me who find it rather sad and pathetic when people use an incontrovertibly sad incident like the death of an innocent baby in order to draw attention to themselves and their political views ?I wonder what is lacking in their lives and what satisfaction they get.Can anyone enlighten me ?

John Hawkes ● 2802d

Well said, John, but no, can not enlighten you.

Jane Carter ● 2802d

I agree, Dianne Abbott's behaviour has been utterly appalling.

Chantal Blake-Milton ● 2802d

John, I would turn that round and say that the death of any baby is shocking and sad.  It makes people frustrated as to how this can be prevented, but there are many thousands of innocent babies dying and being killed worldwide, by ours and others political and religious views.

Bunny Payne ● 2802d

Why Ms Blake-Milton ?

John Hawkes ● 2802d

"Why Ms Blake-Milton ?"Surely we would need a new thread for that?

David Ainsworth ● 2802d

@J Hawkes 12.29"....to draw attention to themselves and their political views ?"And what are those political views, in your opinion?

Sue Hammond ● 2802d

I've got nothing to add to my post of 10/03/19 01:24:00

Michael Ixer ● 2802d

With the shocking attacks on Muslims in New Zealand by fascists, should we not all be careful in the language we use when criticising extremists of that faith and not dehumanise the vast majority for whom Islam is a peaceful religion and guide to living ?

John Hawkes ● 2798d

Yes

Michael Ixer ● 2798d

Yes, a horrible and completely unfounded attack on innocent people by somebody who seems to be a bit of a nutter with an imagined axe to grind.Doesn't detract from disagreeing with those leaving the UK to join a terrorist group who want to disrupt and kill innocents in the UK.Most shocking was this person who carried out the atrocities in Wellington, while filming live, was getting online support from people on Facebook, some of them from NZ.The internet is great for many reasons, but it has also given a voice to the stupid, the uneducated, the disenfranchised, the confused and the slightly mad.  Perhaps society should turn its focus onto working out to help little babies not to turn into these kinds of awfully sad people.T

Bunny Payne ● 2798d

What a very toxic first post to start a thread.How could anyone lack the common humanity enough to crow because a baby is dead?And the baby of a 19 year old whose two previous children have died. Who was groomed online, married at 15, and rendered stateless days before her baby died.Triumphing over someone like that belittles all of us.And that sort of inhumanity and lack of empathy leads to the far-right thinking attacking Muslims at prayer is a fine thing to do.I actually came on here looking for a running club in Putney for a lonely young refugee, but this is rather sickening and will look elsewhere.

Sara Nathan ● 2797d

Hi SaraWelcome to the Forum - and very well said!  Putney Running Club is a very friendly, relaxed club - more of a social club that runs occasionally than a running club!  We meet every Wednesday at 7.20 at The Normanby pub for a 5 mile run.  New members always welcome

Craig Fordham ● 2796d

'Triumphing over someone like that belittles all of us'Sara has deregistered from the forum, presumably shocked by the toxic nature of the initial post on this thread. Her statement, part of which I have quoted above, is powerful and should make us all think.Sara, should you see this post - I am trying to send you details of a running club where all are welcome

Jane Carter ● 2796d

I know you never respond when challenged - this time by John Hawkes - but perhaps you could explain as to whom you agree with. Why was 'Dianne Abbot's behaviour utterly appalling"

Jane Carter ● 2796d

Sorry - I was asking Ms Blake Milton - but I don't expect a reply!

Jane Carter ● 2796d

Sara ran away. Oh dear.😐

Sue Hammond ● 2796d

So you're happy that your comment made a new subscriber think everyone is like you and was forced to 'run away' (I noticed your pun btw).PutneySW15 needs subscribers in order to run this service for local people and you've just scared someone away. I know others who won't contribute because they don't want to be shot down by your views.I think even your fans will think you've gone beyond the pale with this one Sue. I won't be commenting on any of your posts further. You are nothing less than a troll.

Lucille Grant ● 2796d

Well said, Lucille.

Jane Carter ● 2796d

Glad to see you're still here Sara. Do comment when/where you like. Most people are sensible contributors.

Lucille Grant ● 2796d

@LucilleIt seemed strange to me that a new member who purposely joined the forum to talk about running clubs didn't start a new thread about the subject. Instead, Sara decided to scroll down and post in a thread that was totally unrelated. Contrived?I don't have 'fans' Lucille and whether people agree with my posts or not, is of little interest to me. I have noticed though that you, Jane and Caroline often gang-up to have a dig at me. You are usually the instigator though. It's interesting that you call me a troll because I recall a few years ago when you sent me emails of support, but criticised other forum members. I think I may still have them.

Sue Hammond ● 2796d

It seems reasonable to me that someone looking to make a post on here would skim through some of the current ones just to forma view of the tone/style etc of those posts. I can imagine the language used in some comments would seem extreme for what is a community web site and result in an immediate response, so don't see anything contrived there. Glad Sara it still here. What is sad is some of the comments I've seen here aren't extreme compared with some comments I've seen on Facebook, particularly those from across the Atlantic: there must bed a concern that we get desensitised to this. Good to have a reminder of social standards from Sara.

Michael Ixer ● 2796d

I think you'll find Sara put up some very compassionate posts back in 2016 regarding finding help for refugees, so this is far from contrived.  The title of this thread could lead one to imagining it is also actually a compassionate plea for help for the baby - sadly far from the mark.

Liam Jones ● 2796d

I remember Sara's original posts. It's heartwarming to read she is still helping refugees.

Lucille Grant ● 2796d

She did indeed; it was three years ago and she was writing in support of the fine charity she founded, Refugees at Home (https://www.refugeesathome.org). And of course she got some pretty unpleasant, reptilian comments (though saying this is an insult to perfectly decent crocodiles, etc).

Richard Carter ● 2796d

@Lucille"Sue. ... You are nothing less than a troll."I am waiting for your apology Lucille.

Sue Hammond ● 2796d