Forum Topic

Should Begum Be Allowed Back?

http://news.sky.com/story/i-dont-regret-it-british-is-schoolgirl-wants-to-return-to-uk-for-her-baby-11636715NO!

Sue Hammond ● 2827d95 Comments

I agree. Bed made - now lie in it.Or maybe let her come back and try her for treason?

Matt Palmer ● 2827d

No.

Lucille Grant ● 2827d

If she's a British Citizenship I can't see she can be stopped - I don't think under international law the UK can make her stateless. She must have broken several laws so presumably would be arrested immediately on returning. Given her actions, I can't see the UK has an obligation to assist her return. However, her unborn child is innocent, so perhaps should be helped?

Michael Ixer ● 2827d

Does she qualify for a "special place in hell"?

Hugh Thompson ● 2827d

Apparently over 400 ISIS fighters have been allowed to return to the UK from the Middle East. If this so, I do not see how a teenager, who left when she was 15 years old, can be stopped from returning. I'd guess that the vast majority of that 400 were somewhat older than 15 when they left to join, were male and were much more likely to have engaged in actual terrorism. This response is not based on my feelings. My feelings run in quite a different direction.

David Ainsworth ● 2827d

Good to read more measured responses from Michael and David, thank you both .

Richard Carter ● 2827d

I agree with their measured response too, however in her interview she stated that she did not regret going, and when talking about seeing a severed head she referred to him as an enemy of IslamI find that terminology provocative and not that of someone who sees the UK and it's values as her home....

Emarisa Battoia ● 2827d

Of course not having listened to the interview there is no remorse or regret just looking for free health care for her baby.presumably also an isis child to be raised to hate us.

Andy Pike ● 2827d

That's what I based my response on Emarisa. I wasn't aware of just how many Isis fighters have been able to return to the UK.

Lucille Grant ● 2827d

Nor was i. Regardless of opinions i do find the whole thing quite interesting. So many reasons and opinions.....

Emarisa Battoia ● 2827d

This is new: an as-yet unborn child is accused of being an IS adherent!

Richard Carter ● 2827d

Unless they take the child from her and the fact she shows no signs of remorse or regret one assumes the child will be brought up with its parents beliefs.

Andy Pike ● 2827d

@Michael 13.54"If she's a British Citizenship I can't see she can be stopped - I don't think under international law the UK can make her stateless."This is the trouble. Her status as a British citizen should have been revoked and her passport cancelled when she went to Syria specifically with the intention of becoming a Jihadi bride and to do her bit to support IS."She must have broken several laws so presumably would be arrested immediately on returning. Given her actions, I can't see the UK has an obligation to assist her return. However, her unborn child is innocent, so perhaps should be helped?"Begum should be arrested immediately if she manages to get back. Not one penny of tax payers' money should be spent on her repatriation.  If her family are concerned about the baby they can go to Syria and possibly be allowed to bring it back, but the family must bear the expense. Shamima Begum should stay in Syria in my opinion. No sympathy.

Sue Hammond ● 2827d

It's illegal under a UN charter (can't remember which one but it's not an EU regulation!) to make someone stateless.I agree, let her back in, try her and lock her up.

Matt Palmer ● 2827d

@MattSod the UN charter! We'll be free of them soon anyway.

Sue Hammond ● 2827d

@MattSorry I assumed this charter was ratified by the EU and therefore became a law that we must follow? Or is it a separate piece of legislation by the UN that the U.K. voluntarily signed up to? All these different bloody charters and treaties do my head in.

Sue Hammond ● 2827d

@Sue it's a UN charter that the UK probably had a hand in writing. Signed in the 50's as i recall.

Matt Palmer ● 2827d

I agree with you Imarisa

Barbara Stevens ● 2827d

Sorry Emarisa.

Barbara Stevens ● 2827d

Oh another one on our state benefit and they don't even like us.

Barbara Stevens ● 2827d

@Sue. As Matt points out UN charters are negotiated and entered into by the UK freely as a sovereign state, as with ECHR. (Nothing to do with the EU except these days I think a prerequisite of EU membership is being a signatory of the ECHR.) I have no sympathy for this individual as she made her decision and seems not to regret it in any way. As an atheist I have no time for extreme religions that promote intolerance, hate or violence whether they be Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, etc. I'm just noting facts.I don't think there's anyway the UK government is going to spend effort or money repatriating this individual so if she has any hope it will be down to family and friends - or a newspaper?In practice if she does make it out of the refugee camp she may not be able to travel freely because even if she hasn't lost or destroyed her passport the UK can withdraw travel documentation, even for a British citizen - I'm not sure of the details but I assume she would have to surrender herself to a UK embassy to get special restricted documents to travel?My understanding is as she's been associated with a terrorist organisation she would be detained for questioning on returning to the UK, and any child she gave birth to would most probably be made a ward of court.

Michael Ixer ● 2827d

Thanks to Matt and Michael for the info on UN charters. xx

Sue Hammond ● 2827d

SH: "All these different bloody charters and treaties do my head in." That must be a problem.

Alexander MacLeod ● 2827d

Interesting to note that those "supporting" her refer to her 15 year old self as a "young child", while in other arguments  about voting,women's rights etc they would refer to such an age as being that of a young adult.

Hugh Thompson ● 2827d

"Interesting to note that those "supporting" her refer to her 15 year old self as a "young child""Nobody is "supporting" her here. Nobody is referring to her "15 year old self as a young child" here.

David Ainsworth ● 2826d

I am without doubt in a minority here. Whilst in no way whatsoever do I condone her behaviour, and she is obviously unrepentant, I still feel sorry for her.  Now 19 she has suffered the deaths of 2 babies in terrible circumstances. In all probability that has hardened  her perspective on life. In returning to England she will no doubt not be allowed to keep her third baby. Social services, mental health experts,'experts on this that and the other' will all have their say. I totally agree she should be'judged' by the legal system and not lie as did another jihadi terrorist female returnee. It will not be easy for her.  Dreadful mess.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2826d

I agree with you Barbara. Of course she will have to face the consequence of her actions, when and if she comes back, and it is likely that she will be given a prison sentence. I believe that there is one woman's prison where mothers are allowed to be with their babies, although only for a limited time.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2826d

I may have missed it Barbara but where is the proof that two of her babies have already died? She could be lying to gain sympathy and to be treated more leniently.

Sue Hammond ● 2826d

Sue - not sure this is proof but it is stated in the first para of yesterday's Times article written by the journalist who searched for and found Begum.'On the day the caliphate suffered a mortal blow the teenage London bride of an Islamic State fighter lifted her veil. Her two infant children were dead; her husband in captivity.'https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shamima-begum-bring-me-home-says-bethnal-green-girl-who-fled-to-join-isis-hgvqw765d

Lucille Grant ● 2826d

Unfortunately the Times article is behind a paywall so it's not possible to read far enough to check what evidence they had to substatiate this. However, given she was married at 15, she's now pregnant and the IS healthcare would not be good enough to provide contraception and adequate maternity care it seems highly plausible she's had two children already who have died. What is of concern is that my understanding, from an Iraqi acquaintance,  was that in the 1980s healthcare in the Middle East was quite reasonable and improving. It seems to be western intervention (Iraqi wars, suport for Arab spring, etc),  without thought for the consequences or follow up, has caused things to degenerate. Be wary of poorly planned, radical change, the veneer of civilisation is very thin ...

Michael Ixer ● 2826d

Even for a snowflake like me it's hard not to have an immediate emotional response of 'leave her where she is, she brought it on herself.'  Having reflected on it for 24 hours, however, I think such a response will only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to provoke fear and discord and will likely act as a recruitment tool for extremism. Added to which it's not the mark of a mature and civilised society.  I'm also left wondering to what extent The Times picked out the juicier comments she made, or embellished them to make them sound more inflammatory than she intended.  After all, 'Girl mildly regrets what she did' is hardly headline-grabbing news!  It's in The Times interests to make the story as salacious as possible.Therefore, I'm in agreement with those who say she should stand trial for the crimes of which she's accused and face the full force of the law, should she resurface on British territory.  That said, I still wouldn't want us to go out of our way to bring her home.  Let her make her own way!

Craig Fordham ● 2826d

When I was her age we would bunk off school and go to Margate for the day, or Carnaby Street. How did the girls get the money to travel abroad in the first place. But my mother and my friends mothers new we had gone. So if they had no respect for their parents when they left they haven't any respect for anybody else.

Barbara Stevens ● 2826d

I cannot make my mind up.  Instinctively I say, you made your bed now lie in it.  But she did so at the age of 15.  Should she not be given a second chance?  I wonder.But, if then she proves to be a rotten egg, then the penalty should match her deviousness, if she is so.It surprises me how flexible we can be on these matters.  But I would not point fingers that quickly.I dislike what she did no end, but there again, at the impressionable age of 15?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2826d

"I'm proof jihadi brides DO deserve a second chance! Middlesex bank clerk's daughter fled to Syria with her ISIS husband where she was raped and escaped while pregnant - but is now happily married in suburbia. "If even the Daily Mail is able to take a balanced approach to this very difficult question, why can't some do so here? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6710733/Middlesex-bank-clerks-daughter-fled-Syria-ISIS-husband-raped-escaped.html

Richard Carter ● 2826d

As we live in a country that conducts itself by the rule of law then it is a correct interpretation of those laws, defined in Parliament, that should decide.I have zero sympathy for those that went to fight for ISIS and little for those wringing their hands and calling for her return under any circumstances.This woman's only mitigating case is that when she went she was young, doubtless immature and easily influenced.But that being the case if the law says we can't make her stateless and cannot show that she is ineligible to return to her country of birth, then if she can make it back she has be be allowed to do so.Then the laws regarding returning jihadists or any mercenary should come into play and if she is found guilty of breaking them then she should be so punished.Good I say.And she and her family and acquaintances should be closely monitored as public protection is paramount.But the law should be the basis of all our decisions.Not a vote seeking Home Secretary nor members of the general public, some figuratively speaking 'baying for blood', and as willing to disregard the rule of law as are ISIS.

John Hawkes ● 2825d

Once again I am confused.  As I understand it the Dutch husband took off in one direction and she went to the camp.  I have not read anywhere that they were divorced.  Surely the child should have Dutch citizenship or does it automatically take the mother's citizenship?  Also, what  nationality does it take if she fails to return here before the birth?.Talking about it today, it was suggested that Margaret Thatcher 'changed the rules' re dual nationality but nobody knew how.It seemed to be something to do with our military personel being on long service postings abroad. Pure supposition really.  Does anyone on the forum know for sure?

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2825d

From www.gov.uk/dual-nationalityDual citizenship (also known as dual nationality) is allowed in the UK. This means you can be a British citizen and also a citizen of other countries.You do not need to apply for dual citizenship. You can apply for foreign citizenship and keep your British citizenship.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2825d

The child will qualify for British citizenship as its mother is British,  even if the child is born abroad. It could have dual British/Dutch citizenship if the Netherlands allows that.

Michael Ixer ● 2825d

It's had its baby. A boy.

Sue Hammond ● 2824d

Sure you meant to type 'She' has had a baby boy, Sue.

Lucille Grant ● 2824d

Ultra PC.  Gender neutral.  To be commended. Cannot be faulted.  Excellent.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2824d

"Gender neutral".You should have made that point earlier when Sue Hammond was using "she" and "her".

David Ainsworth ● 2824d

@LucilleNo, actually I didn't. No mistake.

Sue Hammond ● 2824d

Shameful. Whatever  her crimes she is still a woman who has given birth. Not an 'it'.

Lucille Grant ● 2824d

This was Sue speaking Lucille. The kind of response one would expect I'm afraid!

Caroline Whitehead ● 2824d

I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, Caroline.

Lucille Grant ● 2824d

@Lucille 16.55Shameful Lucille? Your use of the word is very different to mine. My definition of shameful is the fact that this thing willingly wanted to join such an evil and disgusting death cult as IS.  It then travelled thousands of miles to eagerly marry a Jihadi terrorist and wasn't in the least bit bothered about the barbaric acts these vile fanatics carried out. The fact that it said during the SKY interview today that it wasn't fazed by seeing a beheaded head in a bin shows just how disgusting this thing is. It may not have taken up arms and killed anybody itself (who knows?) but it apparently still loves the pos that was happy to do it. Not a shred of remorse, regret or guilt shown, in fact it said it would stay in Syria if its murdering husband was still around.To use the pronouns 'she'. and 'her' would imply the subject is human and in my book this thing is inhuman.@Caroline 20.41"This was Sue speaking Lucille. The kind of response one would expect I'm afraid!"Oh would one?🙄 Snide comment.😏@Lucille 21.31"I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt Caroline"How kind.🙄 Patronising comment.😏

Sue Hammond ● 2824d

Sue, have you ever thought that kind and reconciling words would not go amiss?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2824d

What are you talking about Ivonne? Kind and reconciling to who and for what?

Sue Hammond ● 2824d

Well Sue,Many of your interventions lately have been fairly vitriolic and unfriendly.I just wondered if you could consider kind and reconciling words instead of bitter or caustic ones.But as you ask the question, I suppose you did not wish to understand the question.Thank you

Ivonne Holliday ● 2824d

Thankyou for your response Ivonne.  It reveals a lot about you.

Sue Hammond ● 2824d

Sue - I don't want Begum back here, period. However SHE is still a woman and not an IT. So yes, your comment is shameful as are Begum's actions/excuses/lack of remorse. HTH

Lucille Grant ● 2823d

What do her remarks reveal about Ivonne, Sue?

Lucille Grant ● 2823d

Ivonne - I agree with Sue, your comments do indeed say a lot about you.  You come across as someone who is patient, understanding, respectful, conciliatory and always willing to listen and to learn.  The forum - and the world - needs a lot more like you

Craig Fordham ● 2823d

Spot on Craig - but I doubt  whether Sue sees Ivonne's comments the same way as you and I.

Lucille Grant ● 2823d

Superb comment, thank you, Craig!

Richard Carter ● 2823d

I have always found that when petulant children or aggressive people in the street say things to provoke a response or feed a desire for attention it is always best to ignore them.

John Hawkes ● 2823d

Spot on, Craig

Michael Ixer ● 2823d

Jihadi brides perhaps aren’t the immediate problem.There are the returning jihadi fighters……Then there’s Western Europe facing a large proportion of convicted terrorists soon hitting the streets again. This after serving time among a radicalised, Islamist cohort in European prisons – itself leaving additional prisoners at risk of being radicalized (one country in Europe recently lost over 70% of its prison imams after learning they were in the pay of a foreign, Islamist regime). …Point being, short-to-medium term we face returning jihadis and large numbers of convicted terrorists being back on European streets.---Long term, the jihadi brides become a problem. Demographic domination is part of Islamist ideology, outbreeding the host population a soft stratagem of war (the Islamic calendar’s based on the Muslim emigration from Mecca to Medina and eventual domination). Islamism preaches the long game, that demographics really are your destiny. They expect to dominate, not integrate.When back here, it’s highly probable Begum will become a baby factory. Even the benefits she’ll receive can be rationalised away as jizya, the tax on unbelievers. You owe her a living.These people don’t think like us. Their actions can be explained by religious principle, custom, culture and history the majority British population remain deeply ignorant of.---The people of Syria didn’t deserve supremacist, jihadi colonialists to descend on them from all over the world. Then again, neither did we. This young lady was radicalized in Bethnal Green, not Syria.

Fraser Pearce ● 2823d

@FraserThankyou Fraser. Nobody supporting IS should be allowed back into the U.K. regardless of their British status. Parliament needs to rush through legislation and ratify this in law. Below is a petition from last year but it's growing momentum again. Over 409,000 signatures now.https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/55829106/verify?token=11XNCMcyTFIvOaOJqRdC

Sue Hammond ● 2823d

Hi Fraser, welcome back after a long time away. You make valid points where Begum and her associates are concerned.

Lucille Grant ● 2823d

Thanks Lucille (and Sue). A kiss and a smile to you.Hope you and yours are well.Been unwell. Still at the anger stage. Won’t give in.The little social graces stir deep emotions. Thank you so much.Best wishes, health and happiness to everyone here.

Fraser Pearce ● 2823d

From the interviews I heard yesterday it sounded that both government and opposition spokes people accepted the UK would have to accept both jihadists and their brides back if they were UK citizens only. Scarily, I may agree with President Trump on this, if we bring them back and keep tabs on them we're safer knowing where they are and being able to monitor them and put them through the justice system.

Michael Ixer ● 2823d

I am so sorry to hear that you have been unwell Fraser but I hope you are well on the way back to good health now.  Never stop fighting. xx

Sue Hammond ● 2823d

So sorry you've been ill Fraser.My very best wishes for better health x

Lucille Grant ● 2823d

Sorry to hear you've been unwell, Fraser: I hope you're now well on the way to recovery. DLTBGYD.

Richard Carter ● 2823d

Craig, thank you so much for your kind and lovely comments; I am really touched.  Thank you!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2823d

baby named as Jerah, after Islamic warlord famed for his massacre of infidels.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2823d

Jerah? Who? Richard is a good name too (Plantagenet, of course).

David Ainsworth ● 2823d

Jerah? Who? Richard is a good name too (Plantagenet, of course).”I suspect that most Richard’s have not be named by parents who are members of and agree with the aims of extreme ideological groups who kill people, by burning them alive amongst other things.Is the name especially meaningful in this case ?  Who knows but not unreasonable to ask the question surely

Mike Warman ● 2823d

It's been speaking to the media again.  This time it justifies the Manchester Arena bombing when 22 innocent people died, and 139 were wounded, more than half of them children.  During its interview with the BBC it justified this atrocity, saying it was retaliation.  It told the BBC while it was "wrong" innocent people died in the 2017 Manchester attack, it was "kind of retaliation" for attacks on IS. So in its sick twisted mind that's alright then.😡While it told the BBC it would have let its late son become an IS fighter, it wants this new baby "to be British" and to return to the U.K. with him.It has named this new baby after its first (late) son. You know, the one it wanted to be an IS fighter. Says it all.

Sue Hammond ● 2822d

Well, I felt that naming her child after an English king would combine the aspects which seemed to appeal to her:- living here but with a strong interest in the Middle East, a religious warrior, and a slaughterer of prisoners.

David Ainsworth ● 2822d

If as Barbara says her child is named Jerah it is rather a strange name for a Muslim baby. When I looked it up the name seems to be a Hebrew name which occurs in the Bible.Where did you find an English King of that name David?

Caroline Whitehead ● 2822d

Looks like an error in transliteration: BirminghamLive quotes the name as 'Jarrah' which, it says, "is also linked to Abu Ubaidah ibn al-Jarrah, known for massacring Jews." Incidentally, many biblical/historical names are very similar in both Arabic and Hebrew (Abraham/Ibrahim, etc).Apart from anything else, the girl is desperately in need of some good PR if she's ever to be accepted back here, since every time she opens her mouth she loses any sympathy she might otherwise have deserved and makes a return ever more problematic.

Richard Carter ● 2822d

Sorry David. I realise now that you meant naming the child "Richard" ie Richard the Lionheart who certainly slew a great many infidels!

Caroline Whitehead ● 2822d

And now for some facts - and analysis.  Illuminating on family court approaches.https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/shamima-begum-what-happen-child-baby-law/?utm_campaign=iNews%20-%20Daily%20RSS%20Newsletter&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=70044262&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_f-bCmAi6oUQeRhbJD3xRLy-VN3c_D5mRcmG7GsHUIC_HXkSJXM47EGw-NeurB5DdTENeR-l6uqdD4vyZqOC6pqYCDckws5y_OSzV-guzxe4vkPuU&_hsmi=70044262

Jonathan Callaway ● 2822d

Yes, as I said in an earlier post, the child is likely to be made a ward of court if mother and baby do manage to return to the UK. Given the comments made by the mother in recent news interviews is seems most likely the courts would appoint an alternative guardian.

Michael Ixer ● 2822d

*****Breaking News on LBC*****Just been reported that this thing has had its British citizenship revoked by the Home Office!👍🏻

Sue Hammond ● 2822d

Just catching up-David on your Richard comment I trust no aspersions are being cast in the direction of our own Richard on here! ;-)- Sue I understand you are somewhat outraged at her, but I don’t think you add to your arguments by denying that she is a human woman, ie a she, not an it or a thing!  She is less likely to have been involved in atrocities to the same level as the “British” male jihadis.I’m still not sure what to think about the whole issue, but have come to this position for now.  Like others I deplore what she has been involved in, and think that she has a large element of culpability having made a huge journey from London to Syria.  Do I think we should revoke her citizenship?  On balance no.  My concern if she were brought to be tried here would be twofold - (1) I don’t have much faith in the U.K. authorities to successfully prosecute her and have her serve a meaningful sentence and (2) I dread to think of the cost to us all of the court case, protection officers etc. given the morally dubious lawyers who might work on her behalf if she is granted legal aid (I do not think she should be)If we do revoke her citizenship and she stays where she is then what would happen after?For all of these ex jihadis I think on balance I would like to see them put through “de-programming” programs, and if as time passes they show genuine contrition and they have served sufficient penance we should let them go, without that or if they are found out pretending, then I think they should be incarcerated to the end of their days as too dangerous to let out.  Could we do that by paying for their incarceration in Syria or nearby?  Possibly but I do think we have some culpability as they were raised here, I just don’t think in the U.K. we have the politicians and legal system to respond to ideologies such as IS.  If she was a US citizen I doubt she would be as keen on returning but I think they are capable of more hardline punishments than we seem here in the U.K. Lastly just a point, as she is receiving so much press, I’m sure there are many others who should be being incarcerated etc, but from what we understand many have returned and are just in watchlists - my mind boggles at this, but also that as a woman she seems to attract more vilification than the men and that seems unbalanced!I see we may have revoked her citizenship, but will this be contested at great cost and effort if there is no water case legal argument for so doing? 

Mike Warman ● 2822d

We shall have to agree to disagree Mike. xx

Sue Hammond ● 2822d

Well we have to disagree on some things Sue!!! :-)Having read that she is also a Bangladeshi national that would seem to settle it; I suspect justice is less lefty liberal there (assuming our ever efficient home office haven’t overlooked something).  Now if only they could do the same for the rest of the returning jihadis and let the Islamic world look after their own....

Mike Warman ● 2822d

I agree with you Michael.She was born in Tower Hamlets, London, in 1999 to Bangladeshi parents and did all her schooling here.  Hurray for British (or should I say English education!).As you say, other returning jihadis (mainly men) seem to have been accepted in without much problem.The cynical side of me, and very cynical indeed, makes me wonder if there is any coincidence, by any stretch of the imagination, with the problems the government is having with Brexit, the closure of the Honda factory in Swindon...  Just wonder.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 2822d

And who do we have to thank for this divided multi cultural land that brings up children who can fall prey to these ideologies?https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/648008/Tony-Blair-Labour-immigration-asylum-seekers-UK-Brexit-EU-referendumAnd Blair was a labour moderate still wanting to “rub their noses in multiculturalism”.  And of course now it’s toxic to talk about it and people could end up turning to the far right,  if so mr Blair and labour, whilst taking 0% responsibility (as all good socialists do) will have been a prime cause.  Why oh why if they want to do something like this can they not do on a smaller basis whilst working in getting popular consent, and if they can’t get popular consent why would they do this at all.  They’ve likely created divisions in society that could take generations to heal

Mike Warman ● 2822d

What's interesting is that others who went out to support IS seems to have managed to gain entry back into the UK without any issues. Begum seems to have put herself in the limelight by conducting these interviews. The cynic in me does wonder if the current home secretary has a political interest in making an example of her, particular if he has higher positions in sight and wants to prove how well integrated he is. Begum seems rather naive to me and, looking at various sources including Wikipedia, it does look like she may have been befriended by young extremists and influenced to abscond not long after her mother had died of cancer and her father remarried. Not an excuse, but it's a different world to the one I live in so I find it difficult to judge. If she returned and was detained we might find out more about extremist groups carrying out this grooming" of youngsters?

Michael Ixer ● 2822d

Thank you so much Michael for your comment.  I agree that Begum seems to have put herself in the limelight by agreeing to these interviews - we do not know how the journalists managed to convince her.  I also agree that cynicism is not out of place at the moment and it would be interesting to see if the UK authorities could get helpful information from her as perhaps they did with other ex-IS members? Thank you once again.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2822d

"What's interesting is that others who went out to support IS seems to have managed to gain entry back into the UK without any issues. Begum seems to have put herself in the limelight by conducting these interviews."And, if I wished to harm the UK, would I draw so much negative attention to myself as she has done? I think that I would try to return without any of these issues. Of course, it may be a double-bluff.

David Ainsworth ● 2822d

Very true David.  On the other hand, perhaps she is incredibly naïve or perhaps she was promised something by the journalists?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2822d

I agree also - as so often opportunism in the political response

Mike Warman ● 2822d

Is Javid being politically opportunistic, a claim I have just challenged on the Guardian 'Forum' when put forward by their deputy editor.As I said earlier, the Home Secretary's prime objective is to protect British citizens from terrorism.This girl it could be argued poses a risk directly or indirectly.There seem to have been two options that could be taken - let her back and charge her here or revoke her British citizenship and force her to invoke her stated Bangladeshi one.Javid obviously has had legal advice that this second option is legal.The British legal system as it should will then decide if he is correct.If not she will be allowed back and processed here.BUT whatever happens will be based on due legal process which we should all accept.Her circumstances may seem unduly harsh but similar action has been taken against other dual nationals deemed non-conducive to the public good.I believe that extreme emotional pleas from both sides of the argument are irrelevant, unhelpful and potentially very damaging if they are placed above the law.And I also tend to feel that provided others in the future are treated as she is, then it serves to "encourager les autres".

John Hawkes ● 2821d

As I said on another thread this could be a good money spinner for lawyers, probably at taxpayers' expense as I suspect legal aid will pick up her lawyer's bill (I've not checked that position but I can't see she has any funds to pay a lawyer). Looks like Bangladesh is pushing back so although she may be eligible for it if she's never asserted her Bangladeshi nationality any application she makes for it now is likely to be refused. That would mean in practice she doesn't have dual nationality, but I expect the lawyers will rack up fees debating that over the coming years ...

Michael Ixer ● 2821d

I agree Michael.I must admit the steps by the Home Office sounded a bit like the 18th century sending convicts to Australia, out of mind and out of sight....Whether we like it or not, perhaps the latter, she was born and bred in the UK, so we must take responsibility on this. Whatever happened Aby Hamza, that hateful preacher of Finsbury Park?  Still in prison in the US?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2821d

Hamza, after serving a seven year sentence in the UK, was, on 9 January 2015, sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole in the US (source Wikipedia). Watching BBC 24 Hour news (but not with sufficient attention to note which lawyer was being interviewed) it appears that after WWII the UK was one of the countries instrumental in creating the UN agreement to stop people being left stateless.

Michael Ixer ● 2821d

Thank you Michael.  I am very pleased indeed that Hamza is still in prison - what a horrible man he is, in my view.The issue of statelessness is so complicated, from the Nansen passports till 1938 to whatever is issued today. Perhaps this is why the UK, and other EU Member States, were stating that countries receiving refugees/immigrants since 2015 had to register them there...The truth is that in the case of Shamima Begum, the UK government cannot delegate its obligations to another country, being born in the UK even if she has dual nationality.It seems to me, and only me may I add, that the chicken has come home to roost....

Ivonne Holliday ● 2821d

Yes, the best place for Hamza is prison. He, and his ilk, are those we should be targeting, not some stupid, naive, gullible teenager who, if interrogated in the right way, would probably willingly yield knowledge that might be helpful in preventing future episodes like this.It would be good if this incident were to highlight the large number of people who are stateless because of circumstances outside of their control and the need to remedy that - I hadn't realised the scale of the problem until this evening and how close to home it was in some cases (Greece).

Michael Ixer ● 2821d

Thank you Michael and I wholeheartedly agree!What horrible times we are living in!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2821d