Forum Topic

Is it just me?

I watched the results of voting in Parliament tonight and cannot make heads or tails of it.If Parliament voted categorically against the Withdrawal Agreement on 15 January, what was tonight's voting all about?  Brexit is to go ahead (fine), the sticking point apparently is the backstop, so the PM wants to reopen negotiations with the EU and they say no.Why was the extension of Article 50 voted down? Why was the no-deal voted down?Mind boggles!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2843d27 Comments

What seems particularly incomprehensible, as well as stupid, is for the government to adopt a course of action (try to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement that they signed up to barely a month ago) when the EU side have been saying repeatedly that that option is simply not available. Crazy!

Richard Carter ● 2843d

Playing a game for time? Gives May a chance to go back to her party and say "I tried but I told you before my deal was the best I could get"? Then if parliament votes to extend A50 she can say its not her fault?

Michael Ixer ● 2843d

Playing a game for time??  Well, they all play games and it is no surprise.But Brexit is so important!!  It is all about the country and not party politics!!If Parliament  voted down extending A50, will there be another vote?I think today should have been a new beginnings and instead - it all fell flat on its face!!Th deal proposed by May was defeated heavily on 15 January.  Today it felt as if that vote was unimportant....

Ivonne Holliday ● 2843d

Looking at what's going on May, like Cameron, seems to be putting the Tory party in front of the UK.

Michael Ixer ● 2843d

The majority for the amendment that she wanted was very narrow (317 to 301), hardly a solid mandate to impress the EU. And looking at the headlines today in the Mail ("THERESA'S TRIUMPH"), Express ("SHE DID IT... Now it's up to EU") there's no hint that the EU has been saying all along that there will be no more negotiation. But when that sinks in, it will all, of course, be the EU's fault.

Richard Carter ● 2843d

What part of  'no renegotiation' do people not understand? The EU will support one of its member states (Ireland) against Uk. Hardly a surprise.

Lucille Grant ● 2843d

I see that Justine Greening abstained on the Brady amendment. I lost track but I *think* the Government was whipping backbench Conservatives to support it; if that's the case, presumably she opposed it but didn't want to actively defy the party whip by voting against it.She voted for the Spelman, Cooper, Grieve and Reeves amendments.

James Elder ● 2842d

As Rafael Behr writes in today's Guardian, "the prime minister invites her backbenchers to vote against something she has agreed in Brussels so she can go back and ask for something that she knows will be rejected." Madness or self-delusion? I'm afraid it's actually both of those.

Richard Carter ● 2842d

It would be interesting to be a fly - or other bug - on the wall when Jeremy meets Theresa later today ...

Michael Ixer ● 2842d

A few things I don't fully understand about this.1) When the PM was defeated 2 weeks ago, she knew the sticking points.  Why did she have to wait for this amendment to return to the EU?  In fact she's known since well before Christmas what the sticking points (when she had to delay the vote).  Did she really need backing/instruction of Parliament to move on? 2) The PM now has to ask for "alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border".  What sort of a vague mandate is that?  If she went back to the EU with a specific idea then maybe they will hear it and consider it.  3) What possible alternative arrangement could there be? Is someone going to have a genius idea in the next few weeks which hasn't already been discussed and dismissed?  Surely the EU will just bat it immediately back at us and say, "what alternative do you propose?"4) Jubilant scenes on the front bench last night and today headlines like "THERESA'S TRIUMPH" and "SHE DID IT... Now it's up to EU"...  Surely the events last night were just the PM receiving a mandate?  She was defeated on her primary objective and has been forced to take instruction from Parliament.  Being defeated, forced to concede and then told what to do is not really a triumph.5) If we leave the EU with no-deal, does that mean there will be a boarder?  They've got 58 days to build it.  So assuming we don't build a wall, what will prevent people and goods moving between the Republic and the North?  Goodwill?  Road signs?  Thus we'll have a fully uncontrolled border.

John Gorst ● 2842d

"So assuming we don't build a wall, what will prevent people and goods moving between the Republic and the North?  Goodwill?  Road signs?  Thus we'll have a fully uncontrolled border"......This is so frightening. I was brought up in Dublin in the 70s/80s and frequently went with family across the border to Northern Ireland. It was a scarey experience at the best of times. The border had to be heavily guarded and there was always an uneasy feeling going through it not to mention many tragic acts of terrorisim. Things have moved on and the Good Friday Agreement was monumental but we mustn't underestimate the risk of trouble starting again and lives being put in danger. Regardless of what happens to goods going from north to south and vice versa it;'s what happens to peace and people that matters. Why this was never discussed during all the pre-referendum propaganda I will never understand.

Abi Smith ● 2842d

Richard, you say the majority for the amendment that she wanted was very narrow (317 to 301), hardly a solid mandate to impress the EU, but then neither was the referendum result a solid mandate to leave the EU.

Clifford Cowell ● 2842d

I agree, 51.9% to 48.1% is an extremely narrow margin for such a dramatic constitutional change .

Richard Carter ● 2842d

I agree with you Abi. Perhaps some of the fervent Brexiters on this forum would offer an explanation because the only thing i can think of is that it was never discussed pre- Referendum is that no-one thought of the implications for Northern Ireland and  Eire. It was all 'take back control' (mostly to do with immigration) and £35 million for the NHS as I recall. Nothing about the pitfalls. Cameron and his advisors should take as much of the blame for this as the Leave campaign.

Lucille Grant ● 2842d

I think it's blatantly obvious that no one bothered to think of the Irish dimension during the referendum. Attitudes to Ireland in the conservative party in particular are summed up in the comment from one senior Tory MP that "the Irish should know their place."

Richard Carter ● 2842d

And without the protections that EU labour laws have given UK workers, soon we will be back to 'the Plebs should know their place'.And the self-interested Corbyn has done NOTHING to protect UK workers or inform them of the consequences of losing those protections.

Rose Compton ● 2842d

This is Matt's take in the Telegraph today; hard to disagree with it:

Richard Carter ● 2842d

Ha ha ha ha!!!  I love Matt!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2842d

And, here we go!!!  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-47030804Barclays is preparing to move £166bn worth of assets from London to its Irish division, a High Court judgement has revealed.The reason for this is that the bank is concerned that City financial services firms could lose their special "passporting" rights that enable them to provide services across Europe, in the event that a no-deal Brexit comes to pass. "Due to the continuing uncertainty over whether there might be a 'no-deal' Brexit, the Barclays Group has determined that it cannot wait any longer to implement the scheme," the judgement says."The overriding requirement, however, is that Barclays Bank Ireland must be legally and operationally ready to conduct all relevant regulated business with the in-scope clients by no later than 29 March 2019, which is the date currently set for Brexit."

Ivonne Holliday ● 2842d

In the same link I posted above, a few entries below is this:5 Live reporter Rory Carson is spending the day in Bridgend in south Wales. Anna has run her bakery at the market for seven years:"I don't know what to think anymore," she said. "I voted out, whether or not I've done the right thing, I really don't know. I think it's quite frightening."Anna said she's particularly worried about shortages: "Prescriptions, medicines, they say they're going to be hard to get. It's a bit frightening. I'm an insulin dependent diabetic, I don't want there to be a shortage of insulin or anything else."

Ivonne Holliday ● 2842d

Ha ha, but sadly sums it all up only too well ...

Michael Ixer ● 2842d

This whole deliberate Bilderberg mess was summed up succinctly in five and a half minutes last week by a Sky news host in Oz, which if nothing else shows how the rest of the world views our politics.Youtube - "Australian Sky News host nails it on Brexit"

Chantal Blake-Milton ● 2842d

Having bought off the DUP with a £1+ billion bung, May's been at the magic money tree again with this piece of blatant, banana republic-style corruption:"Theresa May is preparing to entice Labour MPs to support her Brexit deal with a cash injection into deprived areas that supported Leave, including former mining communities."The prime minister’s allies believe that she needs the backing of about 20 Labour MPs for a modified agreement to offset the number of Tory rebels, even if she wins the support of the DUP."Potential Labour backers are now being wooed with the promise of local investment as Downing Street increases efforts to build a parliamentary majority before a second vote."“There’s a willingness to look again at coalfield communities and make good the promises that former Labour governments failed to deliver,” a well-placed government source said. “It’s about allowing Labour MPs representing Brexit communities to show that they have extracted something tangible in return for their vote. And, frankly, it’s not an unreasonable ask.” "https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-woos-labour-mps-with-cash-to-back-brexit-09chnckrn

Richard Carter ● 2842d

Theresa May brings the EU a problem, not a solution, expects them to have one and when they don't (rightly so) she and Brexiters will blame the EU for their intransigence. No-one who remembers the Troubles and IRA bombs on the mainland should risk the hard won peace in Northern Ireland.Worth a read in the Guardian (sorry not sorry)https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/31/ireland-hard-border-brexit-backstop-good-friday-agreement#comment-125324287

Lucille Grant ● 2841d

Thank you Lucille.  That is an excellent article by Dearbhail McDonald and one that deserves a second read at least!John Humphreys question to Helen McEntee was beyond comprehension! Many people remember the Troubles and the IRA bombs and I dare suggest that Theresa May, Philip Hammond, Michael Gove, Jeremy Corbyn, Vince Cable are among them. Perhaps Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage and Priti Patel were still in school or nursery at the time??Breaking the hard fought for Good Friday Agreement would be totally reprehensible and unforgivable!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2841d

I've been watching European commentators in France and Germany saying May is playing a dangerous game of poker and that we are heading for a No Deal Brexit which is in no-one's favour. The ERG must be thrilled that all their game planning is coming to fruition.

Lucille Grant ● 2841d

It sounds as if tax-haven Britain, here we come!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2841d