Forum Topic

Polls on the EU

They seem to point one way.https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-tomorrow-with-the-option-of-accepting-the-governments-brexit-agreement-or-leaving-the-eu-without-a-deal-which-would-you-support-2/

David Ainsworth ● 2854d27 Comments

Interesting. Also interesting today is the speech by Boris Johnson, in which he argues that, although "we are behind our main competitors the most worrying gap is between London, the most productive part of the whole European economy and other regions in the UK. If you look at the distribution of the Brexit vote, it is clear that people felt that gap in attainments and prospects and that they wanted something done.  If we are to bring our nation together that means investing in great public services and safer streets, better hospitals, better transport links and better housing."Well, he's right about the main driver of the Leave vote, but what he doesn't say is that (1) the way is open to the UK government to deal with this problem anyway and (2) leaving the EU will absolutely do nothing to help this, in fact it will only make things worse, particularly in the areas worst affected already.

Richard Carter ● 2854d

There's also this:'...this Saturday, 19 January, marks an important moment. This is the day, in theory, when the country turns remain. ...By using exactly the same proportion of every age group turning out to vote exactly as they did in 2016, demographics alone will have transformed the UK into a remainer nation.'https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/17/saturday-uk-remain-parliament-force-second-referendum

Clare Noeken ● 2854d

I'm curious, despite the countless links to articles and polls and the thousands of posts telling us how wrong we are, has anyone changed their mind about voting leave?

Adam Tripp ● 2854d

I can't answer for anyone else on this forum, but there is a facebook page setup specifically to tell stories of people who have changed their minds from leave to remain:https://www.facebook.com/RemainerNow/They also have a twitter feed.

Clare Noeken ● 2854d

No to the question would I now not vote Brexit. Quite the reverse.Sanctimonious 'intellectual' dogmatic. humourless, patronising remainers totally justify my original and current thinking

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2854d

"Sanctimonious 'intellectual' dogmatic. humourless, patronising remainers totally justify my original and current thinking"It must sadden you that Leavers have to depend on one such Remainer, Theresa May, to even organise Brexit for you.------------------------------The girl stood on the burning deck,Whence all but she had fled ...

David Ainsworth ● 2854d

"has anyone changed their mind about voting leave?"Here, you mean? I did, before the Referendum though.

David Ainsworth ● 2854d

First time I've seen the epithet 'intellectual' used as an insult. All of a piece, I suppose, with "the British people have had enough of experts."

Richard Carter ● 2854d

when the referendum was announced I was initially thinking 'Why not leave? It might be good.". It quickly became apparent to me that that was a completely stupid idea. Nothing's altered that view since.

Freddie Francis ● 2854d

... a Cats' Vote: https://twitter.com/number10cat/status/1086201568142200832?s=12

Richard Carter ● 2854d

Larry for PM?

Ruth Pates ● 2854d

David. I apologise.  You DO have a sense of humour.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2854d

"David. I apologise.  You DO have a sense of humour."Thank you very much for that. One out of five then. Not a complete failure, I guess.

David Ainsworth ● 2854d

Meanwhile  the Telegraph reports that May has staggered the EU with her unchanged demands:"Theresa May has left European diplomats in a state of “disbelief” following a series of phone calls to EU leaders in which she made no change to her demands despite her Brexit plan being voted down by a 230-vote margin this week.Senior EU diplomatic sources said that Mrs May’s unchanged stance was “greeted with incredulity” following a call with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Thursday night.“It was the same old story - the same set of demands - all unchanged despite the defeat,” said the source with knowledge of the calls.Mrs May is understood to have repeated the same performance in conversations with the French president Emmanuel Macron, the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte and the Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, provoking what one source called “diplomatic eye-rolling” in Brussels."I knew she lacked any imagination but this is beyond belief.

Richard Carter ● 2854d

"I knew she lacked any imagination but this is beyond belief."Is it her "Plan B", do you think?---------------------------"Edmund: Baldrick!Baldrick: (entering) Captain B!Edmund: This is a crisis. A large crisis. In fact, if you've got a moment, it's a twelve-storey crisis with a magnificent entrance hall, carpetting throughout, 24-hour portrage, and an enormous sign on the roof, saying `This Is a Large Crisis'. A large crisis requires a large plan. Get me two pencils and a pair of underpants.(Later, Edmund wears underpants on his head with two pencils up his nose)Edmund: Right, Baldrick, this is an old trick I picked up in the Sudan. We tell HQ that I've gone insane, and I'll be invalided back to Blighty before you can say "Wibble" -- a poor gormless idiot."

David Ainsworth ● 2854d

I doubt she's even got this far with her "planning".BTW, better be careful, you've already been told off for quoting from the papers and poetry, now with excerpts from TV shows you're treading a fine line...

Richard Carter ● 2854d

Very good David!No telling off from here - I think we could all do with some more humour to defuse the tensions at the moment!I do wonder if in the future she has enough imagination to write some memoirs and be relatively accurate as to what her thoughts were during this process.  It might make strangely compelling if frightening reading?

Mike Warman ● 2854d

"I do wonder if in the future she has enough imagination to write some memoirs and be relatively accurate as to what her thoughts were during this process.  It might make strangely compelling if frightening reading?"It would be an interesting read. I doubt that she would reveal all. Apart from confidentiality agreements, I think that she would see it as a personal weakness to ever open up, even for the historians. Apparently there are no totally dependable truth drugs, so maybe alcohol might do it? Still, if she gets some deal which can be defined as a success, then she might open up a bit.

David Ainsworth ● 2853d

Lol !

Richard Carter ● 2852d

Very good question Adam.Amongst my Brexit friends, none of them have changed their mind. Like Barbara said, Brexiteers are pretty much fed up with us Remainers for trying to hijack Brexit (Although not me, as I reluctantly accept we have to implement Brexit in some form for the good of democracy)I don't come on this forum very often but im intrigued to find out if I'm the only Remainer who thinks as a matter of principle Brexit should be implemented if they can sort a deal out?

Ruth Davis ● 2852d

That's a fair question, and deserves a serious answer.I'm most definitely a Remainer, but if all else fails and if some sort of deal is worked out, then sadly I would accept that we should leave, despite the consequences.  But this whole thing has thrown up a constitutional issue: MPs are elected not as delegates, to follow the instructions of their electorate, but they are representative and obliged to do what they think best for the country.  What happens when this comes into conflict with the supposed 'will of the people' and that will is clearly damaging to the country's interests, in their view? I don't know how to resolve that.In return, can I ask a question? Given that so many people in the north and midlands, our old industrial heartland, feel rightly that they been let down by the country's' inability to provide them with proper jobs and investment, as well as by the awful toll of austerity, and that those causes are squarely the responsibility of UK governments, how exactly will leaving the EU attack these problems and tackle their causes?

Richard Carter ● 2851d

Yes, a good question. If Parliament agreed to May's deal or an alternative one, for example, along the lines of that proposed by Labour I'd reluctantly accept it. I would consider a "no deal" very bad for the UK  and Ireland, and undesirable for all of Europe. Unfortunately, one of the undesirable affects of Brexit  that I stated a while ago as one of my reasons for voting Remain has already manifested itself in NI during the weekend. It may be an unrepresentative fringe minority but it's worrying and it would be unwise to ignore it - some will look for any excuse to disrupt. Gibraltar is also likely to be adversely affected by a no-deal. Given the mess we seem to have at the moment I thing a second referendum is the only way to validate or confirm a change of mind in the original result if a deal cannot be reached. Polls are notoriously unreliable, I've seem some statistical analysis based on changes in demographics based in age that indicate the result might change, however, we don't know who will actually go and vote - I also heard of some leavers apparently saying we've already voted, were not doing it again! I don't believe that, so the only way to find out is an real ballot. Let's see what Mrs May has to say this afternoon.

Michael Ixer ● 2851d

A small aside of possibly doubtful provenance (via Twitter, via Sky):-"A Remain campaigner on Sky said she'd heard a lot of people say they wanted no deal. When questioned, they thought no deal meant staying as we are."

David Ainsworth ● 2851d

I heard something similar a while ago. I also heard rumour of British expats in Spain who voted to leave but thought the changes arising from Brexit wouldn't apply to them. Of course, if one's wealthy enough it doesn't matter, I hear it's possible to by EU passports from Cyprus or Malta for a few €million ... or move one's hedge fund business to Dublin.

Michael Ixer ● 2851d

No, I will not accept the referendum result.  The vote was advisory, not legally binding.  As a result, a supermajority was not set, and would not have been met by a 48/52 split (with only 37% of the electorate actually voting to leave the EU).  David Cameron saying the result would be treated as mandatory sets a precedent for prime ministers to create legislation without the approval of parliament.  That’s not democracy.  That’s a dictatorship.Vote Leave lied.  Who wouldn’t want more money for the NHS?  Less red tape? No downside only a considerable upside? British citizens living abroad for more than 15 years were denied a vote, including very many who had already exercised their right as an EU citizen to live elsewhere in the EU.  Will people be forced back to the UK as they no longer have the right to live in Spain, for example?  Or forced to move because they’re no longer entitled to free healthcare?  Where will they go?Changing demographics mean that less than 3 years on, with everyone voting as they did before, new people eligible to vote and others dying, the ‘will of the people’ would now be to remain in the EU.As an aside, I do meet people outside parliament who voted to leave the EU but have changed their minds.  It makes me sad, as they can be utterly weighed down with remorse.  Yesterday, an older gentleman (David, Millwall fan from South London) approached me who had voted to leave.  I asked him how would leaving the EU benefit him personally.  He said it wouldn’t.  I said, why do it then?  If it does go ahead, we’ll have years and years of this insanity, with parliament not having the time to get on with the things that people *really care about, like health, welfare and education.  By the end of the conversation he had changed his mind, happily let me put a Cancel Brexit sticker on his hat, and said he’d try and get a Stop Brexit chant going at their televised match at the weekend.It’s time for parliament to take back control.  Brexit is not in the national interest.  Stop Brexit.https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/https://www.indy100.com/article/8-of-the-most-misleading-promises-of-the-vote-leave-campaign-ranked-in-order-of-preposterousness--WyxD59VO3Nbhttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/11068438/Tories-pledge-to-give-vote-back-to-all-expats.htmlhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/17/saturday-uk-remain-parliament-force-second-referendum

Clare Noeken ● 2850d

Good for you Clare. Exactly what I feel too.

Lucille Grant ● 2850d

Chanting Millwall fans .... that'll do it 😁😁

Andy Pike ● 2850d