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So, what did people vote for?  If they voted for what the Leave campaign said, they’re not going to get that with Theresa May’s deal.  https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fceI do not have a selfish agenda at all.  I want the best for the UK and us as citizens.  Leaving the EU will not solve any of the issues that may have caused people to vote to leave the EU, whether that be more money for the NHS (that was a lie, and we desperately need EU nationals to work in it); more affordable housing (government policy, nothing to do with the EU); lower immigration (we have an aging population, and many EU nationals work in that sector); free trade deals (we’re already part of the largest trading bloc in the world, with trade deals in place all over the world, new deals take decades to negotiate and are not ‘free’, most likely involving more visas from countries outside our home continent); reviving the manufacturing industry (government policy, not the EU); more school places (government policy, not the EU); getting our sovereignty back (we’ve always had it, the EU doesn’t diminish it)  and so on.  For us as citizens, it takes fundamental rights and protections away from us, freeing the government to do whatever they want e.g. removing our freedom of movement, lowering employment standards etc.I’m not a political person (honestly, Brexit is the only time in my life I’ve felt a duty to be interested in it), but truly believe that the austerity measures put in place by our government have a huge part to play in why people voted to leave the EU.  People are miserable, for good reason, and they want a change.  Leaving the EU will not bring the changes they want.  Staying in the EU costs us less than 1% of our taxes, so is leaving and all the hassle associated with that really worth it?https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/un-report-uk-poverty-austerity-government-cuts-special-rapporteur-benefits-callous-a8636901.htmlAn MP summed it up brilliantly recently when he said ‘Blame us. Blame Westminster. Do not blame Brussels for our own country's mistakes and do not be angry at us for telling you the truth. Be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie.’https://www.indy100.com/article/david-lammy-brexit-speech-house-of-commons-labour-eu-deal-leave-watch-video-8724301With regard to rioting, I don’t doubt that some people will indeed riot for a short period if Brexit is stopped.  I do protest outside parliament, and most of the leave protestors are too old to do anything too serious.  The most vocal and vicious are the very small group of EDL types, and we must all agree that government policy should not be dictated by people like that.  Any short term anger will be as nothing compared to the pain felt throughout the country if Brexit goes ahead, on all levels, in the years to come.  If Brexit does go ahead, government will be tied up for decades in debating the detail, giving little time to focus on the issues that really do matter.  Justine Greening has said as much on this forum.Whether the Brexit result goes ahead or does get reversed, that will be as a result of our MPs in our parliament.  They are however representatives and not delegates, and have a duty to act in the best interests of the country.  I am hoping that, today, they take back control and steer us back onto the course that’s best for Britain.  I am both British and European.  It’s amazing what we can do together.  Stop Brexit.

Clare Noeken ● 2857d

The question of how people identify is really interesting.  Politicians throughout the West (and the globe) appear to have targeted this over past decades as a means of gaining votes presumably, but at a cost of creating divisions in society.The rise of the internet and social media have exacerbated as they create echo chambers of similar views, but have also broadened the catchment to link to people with similar views who are geographically dispersed.Locally I’m going to guess that the left wing in the U.K. started, as did various nationalists etc.  When I was growing up (70s and 80s) I think we only thought of ourselves as British, but as the Scots increasingly reposnded to nationalists and define themselves more as Scottish, eventually this has bled into more people identifying more strongly as English.  I think it’s hard to have only the minorities in any situation with increasingly strong seperate identities without the majorities catching on.Divisive, manipulated by various politicians for their own ends but as usual with unforeseen consequences.Uranus, the plant of revolutionary change has been in Aries (the self) since 2011 (Arab spring) and is now moving to Taurus (money and resources) so from that perspective a questioning and realignment of identity might tie in.  I realise no-one here will likely follow such things but another take on identity)Good more mainstream article from the washington post here.https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/theworldpost/wp/2018/09/18/identity-politics/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.79dfe0b4dec6

Mike Warman ● 2857d

Totally hear what you are saying Michael, the thing is that good people like yourself really need to get out of London, in fact out of any city, and ask people. There isn't much point in asking the odd Londoner who may have voted leave as this wasn't an area that voted leave overall. So don't be scared of leaving your Putney bubble - do it i would say :) and visit the areas that voted leave and ask them. There you (and Richard) may hear some answers. That you may understand, or not understand. Thought i would share a story about a family i grew up with in London. Father British, mother Ghanaian (a journalist and very very intelligent and peaceful may i add)  and 2 children; father and daughter voted remain, mother and son voted leave. They have not argued once. I asked why they voted leave and her (and her sons) response was this:They felt the EU was a way for Germany to run EuropeWhile they didn't have a problem with the agenda they felt too much too fast was happening and that some things are best left to naturally evolve that be decided by Junker et alBut actually the most important thing that they were hoping for was that as a result of the UK leaving there would be more opportunity for Commonwealth countries. When you think that the wealth of this country is directly as a result of 'The Empire' i do feel that we owe something to these countries we exploited first, not the EU, and i cannot argue with what they said at all. Even if they aren't right, i just can't argue with it. And i voted remain

Emarisa Battoia ● 2856d

Thanks Emarisa. I used the term Putney bubble slightly flippantly. I have travelled around the UK (and Europe) on business and also to amateur astronomy/astrophysics conferences; I also have friends dotted around the UK and Ireland (including Hull, Wigan, Yorkshire, Bristol, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dublin ...) but of course they're very much of a similar social group - one of the most rabid anti Brexit groups I've met have been professional astro & quantum physicists! However, I also have close family contacts with Thurrock, Essex, and a couple of cousins, onetime UKIP supporters (not sure if they still are), who don't share my views on Brexit but I understand the personal reasons for their views to do with their parents' experiences. I also have family contacts in France by marriage and hopping over to Paris for the weekend seems much the same as, say, going to Hull or Edinburgh on the train, hopefully Brexit won't change that too much. The thing I've found with meeting people on a business or casual basis round the UK is that if they have a different view on Brexit  or politics the subject quickly gets changed whereas on this conference the arguments went into more detail and discussion. The story about the family you know is interesting. I think most of my second generation Asian friends are Remainers, not had a chance to it discuss it with a Zulu I'm acquainted with! I agree that the UK's wealth was derived from the Empire and regrettably the slave trade but that is also true of other European countries - France, Germany (which had African colonies until WWI), Holland, Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Italy - so I don't think the EU is mutually exclusive to close ties with and providing assistance to ex colonies or the Commonwealth where it's needed. Some Commonwealth economies, for example, India's, looks very healthy (and I've much admiration for their space programme). Looking at the current global scene with the US distancing itself from Europe, and Russia and China forming two major areas of power I believe the UK should be aligning itself closer  with an expanding EU to moderate undemocratic tendencies in those other three power blocks - and, unfortunately, I include the current US administration in that although not the overall US political scene. Anyway, enough rambling from me, off for a flu jab - better take advantage of the NHS, another great UK institution!

Michael Ixer ● 2856d

@Ruth, @David, @EmarisaIt's a conundrum for Remainers. I feel Brexit may fail because it was poorly thought out, there was no attempt at conciliation, definition of what Brexit was or planning before invoking A50 and the whole negotiations seem to have been poorly managed in that both Remainers and Leavers have been united in disliking the resulting deal. However, I think many Leavers would feel that was a manipulated outcome, although untangling 40+ years legislation, not infringing the Good Friday Agreement, catering for those who have taken advantage of the freedom of movement, etc was always going to be a challenge. Given a deal can't be agreed and a no-deal is also likely to be rejected by Parliament then  revoking, or suspending, A50 seems the only sensible option. Some think that the vote was a result of misinformation and threfore invalid but we get on dangerous ground there, that could be argued about many ballots! The safest option does seem to be a second referendum - if people feel they were misinformed they can change their mind, but the result is either revalidated or corrected. Further, this isn't a "remoaner's" idea;  to quote Rees-Mogg from 2011: “We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed.” (Twitter, 9am 24.10.11.) I do, though think as well as a deal (whatever it is) or no deal alternative there must also be a remain option for my reason in the next paragraph.So I'd prefer a second vote and I'm reluctant to criticise the idea of reversing Brexit because I'm not convinced the vote wasn't manipulated which is why I'm uncomfortable with the result of the 2016 referendum given its narrow margin. Throughout my life I've been a great believer in the "cock-up" rather than the "conspiracy" theory. However, with both the EU referendum and the US presidential elections in 2016 I'm not convinced there weren't parties trying to subvert the results, possibly individuals or nation states. This is for several reasons: 1) reading various reports and articles on Facebook's and Cambridge Analytic's activities and some of the individuals allegedly involved; 2) having the opportunity to view some of the analysis of tweet-bot traffic recorded prior to both ballots; 3) the alleged intermixing of leave campaign and insurance company personal date at a call centre; 4} report of liaisons directly or indirectly between certain individuals  (Fox, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Banks, Bannon, Trump, Putin, et al). At present I'd admit there's no smoking gun but I'm very suspicious. Why would there be a conspiracy? Well, they're all very right wing senior wealthy white males and seemingly have an interest in financial regulations with a desire to maintai their status and the status of like minded individuals but that's obviously only speculation ... and, of course, many voters in the UK and US were, justifiability, very unhappy with their circumstances so were very easily influenced. I believe a three way second referendum along the lines suggested by Ms Greening is the beset option to get closure on this matter - incidentally I didn't vote for her and am a member of another party but fully support her in this matter. (Just to add, I don't believe Facebook deliberately contributed to any conspiracy, I think they were just cavalier and sloppy with data management for commercial reasons.)

Michael Ixer ● 2856d